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@Blue Lion
thank you...
the events files could spawn this unit in Ashkhabad from the begining of summer 42...
thank you...
the events files could spawn this unit in Ashkhabad from the begining of summer 42...
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Here you are, tech!Originally posted by techumseh
If anyone can direct me to a copy of Nemo's original Red Front, with the updated graphics, I would like to put it up on my site, in the "Conversions" section. http://www.tecumseh.150m.com/ If a new version is completed, and tests out successfully, I would be happy to host it as well.
In the meantime, with all due respect, this "redesign by committee" has been tried three times before, and has always fizzled out. If a revised ToT version is desired, it might make more sense to start from scratch.
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I think he was talking about your updated graphics version of 1.4...Comment
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Indeed - We must bring the frieghts/airfields back, these were part of the Nemo design...!Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I have always considered that airlifts are the way that CIV2 allows a designer to model the speed of RR's without running into problems with the infinite carrying capacity of RR's.
Let's just concentrate on the events.
I am of the same mind - Things we set out to change with RF were the most obvious problems. I say we leave the game balance alone.Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Right now it looks like there are so many simultaneous untested changes that it is impossible to tell what the ramifications of each one will be. Months of work and testing by Mac Galleo will be required before the scen is ready for playtesting by others.
Let's just eliminate the 'too-many-units', the partisan issue and create Stalingrad/Kursk battles and be done with that.
Once we start messing with the CIV2 details (which Nemo used for a reason) we begin to open a pandora's box...
For the big battles, all we have to do is award a tech wen Stalingrad (for example) is lost. Then units are spawned
each turn, until the city is taken back...The units can be cunningly awarded to make it not too easy to win...
Totally true points, all of these.Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I would recommend that:
1. Everything in RF 1.4 that does not absolutely scream to be changed be left as is. If it ain't broke, why fix it?
2. That any changes be as minor as possible.
3. Eliminating the partisan problem and blockading rivers are trivial tasks.
4. That what MacGalleo has done to reduce the initial number of German units plus a spawning approach similar to what I have outlined in A and would serve to eliminate 'too many units' by maintaining the Germans at a relatively constant strength and offers the means for any fine tuning of German offensive strength.
5. The Stalingrad/Caucasus offensive depends on the ability of the Germans to capture Rostov and/or to get across the Don despite the best defensive efforts of the Soviets. This can be accomplished with a few events. After that, whatever related events are in RF 1.4 can continue the campaign.
6. The Kursk offensive is really a generic term for any major German attack(s) in 1943. By using flags it should be possible to launch one or more German counterattacks where they might do the most good.
7. Adding a reactive German defence in '43 - '45 should be relatively simple.
As I mentioned, I think we must concentrate our efforts on the events only. And leave the wider picture the way that
Nemo made it. I think a classic like this works because it takes advantage of CIV2's elegant features and uses
them to benefit the scenario's feel...
I think when it comes to flags and events that involve the major nazi onslaughts, and other happenings that lead up to the attacks,
perhaps some of the experienced events wizards might be persuaded to step in and help make these? That way we can hammer out this
ToT epic into what we wish it to be! I am really against turning this into a totally different scenario from Nemo's vision...
PS
In the meantime, myself and fairline are constructing the graphic update that will blow Zhokov's Soviet socks off!
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New Start from the Catfish's redfront 1.4 conversion.
* Eliminated the “Too many units” problem.
- Changed the .scn file by thinning out the rear echelons of the German forces by ~170 of the weakest units (Romanian Inf, Wehrmacht etc.).
- See later how to change or not the events to avoid “Too many units” problem
* Reduced the 2-turn movement capability of all Soviet aircraft to 1 turn.
Is 16 for Pe-2 bomber's movement good?
* Eliminate some units loopholes.
- Put the P-47 in new slot rather than use existing La-5 slot.
- Put the G.I. in new slot rather than use existing Refugees slot.
- Put the M4A3 "Sherman" in new slot rather than use existing KV-1 Heavy Tank slot.
- Put the T-34/85 Guards in new slot rather than use existing T-26 Light Tank slot.
- Put the SU-152 in new slot rather than use existing SU-122 slot.
- Put the JS-2 in new slot rather than use existing T-34/76 slot.
As the T-34/85 Guards unit is in a new slot, do I upgrade T-26 in T-70 and later in SU-76(as Colwyn do in his 1.5 version)?
* No disbanding of units (except freighters and supply convoys).
- Changed General flags in Advanced unit fields in the rules files.
- Supply convoys have to be disbanded in soviet cities to help production.
Does the supply convoy stay a trade unit or not?
* Increased number of Hedgehogs in german cities to make them tougher to conquer.
- Created a second hedgehog unit.
The first become Volkssturm w/MG43 in summer 44.
The second stays hedgehog until the end of the scn.
* Placed floating mines at the mouth of some rivers.
* Give units a choice in what they pillage.
- Added Transporter in "@PILLAGEMENU" in the game.txt file.
I'm waiting for your suggestions...
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I cannot understand why you want to change anything beyond 'two many units' and other glaring issues.
Why change unit capabilities, etc? I am sure Nemo tested them himself?
Is there a reason for reducing moves and changing unit slots, etc?Comment
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The answer is here :Originally posted by curtsibling
I cannot understand why you want to change anything beyond 'two many units' and other glaring issues.
Why change unit capabilities, etc? I am sure Nemo tested them himself?
Is there a reason for reducing moves and changing unit slots, etc?
Am I wrong about the needed changes?Originally posted by AGRICOLA
What follows is in two parts. Part A briefly summarizes the most significant changes that Colwyn has made so that RF 1.5 is considerably more difficult than RF 1.4. Part B covers the improvements to RF 1.5 that have been suggested by contributors to this thread.
The attachment contains zipped saves from RF 1.4 (May ’42) and RF 1.5 (Dec ’43) which illustrate how the use of various existing loopholes can distort both scenarios.
A. Major changes from RF 1.4 to RF 1.5
I. Eliminated the “Too many units” problem.
Changed the .scn file by thinning out the rear echelons of the German forces by ~200 of the weakest units (Romanian Inf, Wehrmacht, Stu III G etc.).
II. Replaced the Supply Convoys from UK with shipments of military units.
This has greatly reduced the money available for rush buying and made it mandatory that a player develop the productivity of Soviet cities. IMO, despite my initial misgivings, this change has significantly improved the game.
III. Eliminated the event (Winter ‘41-’42) that spawns two Partisans for every Red Army that is killed.
A player can easily build 150+ inexpensive, weak Red Army during the winter of ‘41-’42, stack them up in front of Soviet cities to get them killed off and end up with 300+ much stronger Partisans far behind the German lines. With airlifted and locally RB reinforcements this Partisan army is strong enough and large enough to rapidly conquer all of Europe in ‘42.
IV. Reduced the 2-turn movement capability of all Soviet aircraft to 1 turn, shortened their ranges, made them extremely expensive and eliminated their attack capabilities in winter.
This prevents the use of aircraft to form a defensive line that blocks German movement. It also means that aircraft play a minor role in RF 1.5 and that Soviet units have to operate without air cover.
V. ABSOLUTELY prohibited the selling of AT Defenses.
The RF 1.4 save shows why this was necessary.
1. Because selling AT Defenses is not forbidden in RF 1.4, it is possible to employ a scorched earth strategy of razing all possible cities from Riga to Odessa rather than letting them fall into German hands.
2. As there are no German-held cities within Luftwaffe range of the Soviet front line, Luftwaffe aircraft no longer pose a threat to the Soviets.
3. With the Luftwaffe threat removed, the only defensive forces that the Soviets need are ~60 La-5 fighters to form a picket line whose ZOC stops German ground units from advancing. The only unit that the La-5’s need to worry about is the occasional Sdkfz 4x20mm Flak.
4. Meanwhile Il-2 Shturmoviks can have a field day shooting up German ground units. They are in no hurry and can afford to wait for German units to move onto ground with no defensive bonus.
5. In the Rostov area, most German units are spawned in squares where there used to be cities. With the cities gone, they become sitting ducks, without even a fortress to protect them. Il-2’s can regularly kill stacks of 20-50+ freshly spawned units.
It is a very cosy situation for the Soviets who can chop up German units at their leisure with minimal risk of losing any of their own units, a far cry from the dangers the Soviets actually faced in the summer of ’42.
VI. Added new house rules, both to close loopholes and make the scen more dificult.
B. Recommended changes to Colwyn’s Red Front 1.5
I. Minimize Soviet amphibious capabilities by making them unable to build any ships except those spawned by events in UK.
At present, players can use three major rivers to safely freight units into the heart of Germany in winter when the Luftwaffe cannot attack. This possibility was suggested by Xin Yu in his excellent essay on Red Front strategy. Although I have taken advantage of this in my games (see the RF 1.5 save), there is no way that it could actually have happened. AFAIK, the Soviets carried out only minor amphibious operations in WWII.
Proposed remedy:
Remove the Steel tech from Soviet tech list to make it impossible to build any ships. I would appreciate opinions on whether the Soviets should keep the freighters that they have at the beginning of the scen in the Baltic (2) and Black (3) Seas. Enterprising players could make considerable use these few ships for small but not unimportant amphibious operations. Also, should the Soviets start with a number of freighters in the Caspian Sea and on the Volga for transporting units to the front?
II. Make both the battle for Stalingrad and the Caucasus invasion events that the Soviets cannot avoid.
Stalingrad was one of the pivotal battles of the war, yet in the RF 1.5 saved game the Soviets managed to avoid it. This should not be possible, the battle was too critical to be circumvented by players.
In the RF 1.5 save, the pontoon bridge was taken out by 152mm Howies (IIRC, 10 were lost). German units that subsequently spawned on the site of the bridge had to cross minefields to get to Stalingrad. Howies in Kotelnikovo had a field day using the immobilized German units for target practice. There was no battle for Stalingrad or any threat to the Caucasus.
Proposed remedy:
Change events so that at least some German units are spawned on the east bank of the Don, change the types of units spawned to include more units that can ignore city walls, randomize spawning locations and, maybe, use CHANGETERRAIN events to remove possible minefields. In other words, do everything possible to ensure that Soviets will have to fight for Stalingrad and defend the Caucasus.
III. Try to make Kursk ’43 (Zitadelle) a significant factor in the game.
There seems to be general agreement that this phase of the war could be be improved.
The Kursk problem may be insoluble because there is no guarantee that the Soviets will have advanced to the area where the units for Zitadelle are created. We may have to accept the fact that units created for Zitadelle may start out a considerable distance from the nearest Soviet units. The RF 1.5 Dec ’43 save shows that the last of the Zitadelle units are still west and southwest of Voronezh. In ’43, my Soviet units never left the protection of their cities and minefields and had no difficulty in destroying the units spawned for Zitadelle.
Proposed remedy:
Increase the number of spawned units . . . . . and hope for the best.
IV. Make the defence of Germany in ’44 and ’45 stronger, more active and more of a challenge for players.
Dr Kellogg and others feel that this warrants tweaks such as:
1. Invisible Volkssturm which appear after German cities are taken; no serious danger but really annoying.
2. Extraordinary strong Waffen-SS -high movement or invisble flag- which appear very late in the game and which try to defend their country till the bitter end.
3. The chance of counter-attacks by the Germans if Soviets stop their advance or are not able to take major cities within a certain timeframe (in this case the Germans would have had enough time to organize and re-group their defense...)
Proposed remedy:
The German defences can be improved by starting the scen with all or selected German homeland cities already with a Hedgehog or a similar static, strong defensive unit so that events need not be wasted creating them. In anticipation of the end game, cities that will be designated as “fortresses” in ’44 or ’45 can start with 2 or more such strong defensive units. In addition, any of the above suggestions or variants of them can be implemented.
Possible drawbacks include that #1 may require the equivalent of a German partisan unit which could not use the existing partisan slot because there already are both Soviet and Yugoslav partisans. # 3 may use up an excessive amount of events space if used extensively.
V. Create a race for Berlin between the Allies and the Soviets.
At present, RF 1.4 and RF 1.5 use change terrain from industry to ruins or plains to simulate the effect of the Allied strategic bombing of German cities (summer ’43 to end of scen). Although historically correct, this has a minimal effect on German production. For most of this period, German cities convert production to gold. Also, starting in late summer ’43 and continuing to the end of the scen, G.I.’s and Sherman tanks are spawned, first in Italy and then in central Europe. These are too few and too weak to capture German cities.
Proposed remedy:
Create Allied heavy bombers (B-17’s, B-24’s or Lancasters) powerful enough to destroy city defenders, first in Italy and then in Germany. These could show up in Italy during the summer of ’43 and in Germany at some time in late ’44. If the bombers can be made to attack nearby cities (this should work in TOT because in Market Garden freshly spawned German aircraft make a beeline for the nearest Allied unit or city) then, together with additional G.I.’s and Shermans, they should be able to start capturing Italian cities in ’44 and German cities in early ’45.
VI. Eliminate the T-34/76 to JS-2 and La-5 to P-47 loopholes.
These loopholes appear if players do not follow the sequence of actions expected by the scenario. The loopholes exist in both RF 1.4 and 1.5.
1. The sequence of Soviet tank improvements is supposed to start with T-34/76 which is upgraded to T-34/85 when the Soviet Armament Industry (Leonardo’s) wonder is built.
2. If a player does NOT build the Soviet Armament Industry wonder and continues to build and play with T-34/76’s, in May ’44 his inexpensive T-34/76’s are replaced by JS-2’s, a considerably better and more expensive tank because the T-34/76 slot is occupied by the JS-2 in RULES 7, 8 and 9.
3. The La-5 to P-47 loophole has a similar origin. A player who does not build the wonder or research the tech for the Yak-9 will end up with an unintended upgrade of his La-5’s to P-47 Thunderbolts in RULES 9 (Summer ’45).
Proposed remedy:
Put the JS-2 and P-47 in new slots rather than use existing T-34/76 and La-5 slots.
VII. Relocate Labor Brigades to where Nemo has them at the start of RF 1.4 and restore the number to 16. Ensure that all LB’s go “active” during the “ghost” turn.
In RF 1.5 the author advocates that the Russians found new cities in Siberia, has positioned Labor Brigades to do so and suggests that this is necessary to win the scenario. I tested this idea and, unfortunately, the results do not agree with his ideas. Expanding existing cities is a much more efficient way to increase production than building additional cities in the Siberian forest.
VIII. Change square (50,28) from ocean to land.
This is a very subtle change made by Colwyn in RF 1.5 that allows players to create an ocean passage from UK to the Baltic (see RF 1.5 save). If the Soviets are to be unable to carry out amphibious operations in the Redux, freighters from the UK must be kept out of the Baltic.
IX. Give units a choice in what they pillage.
The choice exists in RF 1.4 but I’m not certain whether there is or is not a choice in RF 1.5. When I had all the relevant RF 1.5 files in one folder, there was no choice. Farmland and irrigation were automatically pillaged before a road could be destroyed. When I moved the files to a new folder, there was choice. I never did bother to figure out why and played the scen with selective pillaging. My rationale was that even the dumbest Soviet lieutenant would know that blowing up bridges and culverts would delay the Germans more than torching or trampling down cornfields.
X. Include the following house rules from both RF 1.4 and RF 1.5.
A. No disbanding of units (except freighters).
B. No chaining of freighters. This increases the chance that freighters may be sunk. However, as freighters carry military units rather than Supply Convoys, the loss of a ship is no longer a catastrophy.
C. No incremental rush buying.
D. No airlifting units from UK to the USSR,
E. No selling of antitank defences in order to carry out a scorched earth strategy of razing cities rather than have them fall into German hands.
F. No unit movement, sales or build queue changes allowed in the phantom June 1941 turn.
G. No moving or rehoming of fortified positions.
H. No building of airfields as substitutes for RR.
I. No selling of NKVD Headquarters
It may be time to define what you want just like changes.Comment
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Just my opinion, and others are free to comment. But I don't think we actually need many changes beyond the most glaring issues:
1) Too many units (You are fixing this)
2) Partisan loop (You are fixing this)
3) Adding more defenders to axis cities (can be done as nearby axis cities fall)
4) Large-scale events (Stalingrad, Kursk, etc) (Can be covered with events/techs)
5) New graphics, incorporating new units/icons/cities (as of today, done and dusted)
Beyond that, I do not see the need for tons of extra changes for the sake of just making what some might consider a scenario redux.
I personally think Nemo's masterwork is near perfect apart from a few flaws, and most of those are due to the CIV2 engine anyway.
Adding in untested patches, changing slots and messing with unit move/hit/def settings are not in the scope of what we set out
to do with Red Front - All we wanted was a scenario that took advantage of ToT's added features. Like individual sounds for each
unit. Also in events, 10 units can be spawned at once, randomly too - rather than ten events being used...These are the kind of
things that need cleaned up and changed. Not adding in tons of changes for the sake of it. Not everyone wants a total overhaul.
Just the bug/ugly bits fixed up. Now I am not being nasty here, just honest. And while I totally salute what you are doing here, MacGalleo...
I really have to ask if it is all really needed. I think we are in danger of throwing away the simple mechanics of the original scenario.
The bottom line is that we need a one, big unified version of this scenario that we can all use. And I think we already have it...
Red Front 1.4 is fine for me, it just needs new GFX and some features (listed above) fixed and upgraded...Once we have all agreed
and fixed up 1.4, then players are more than welcome to make their own upgrades, PBEM versions, whatever. I think now we have to
stop the myriad of untested upgrades and just fix the list above.
Let me stress the point...Red Front is fine, why tweak what already works...Let's fix what doesn't, in an elegant manner.
No offense intended, just making my views clear.
Best regards!
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@Curt
I am not offended and I like criticism when help us advance.
Unfortunately, I have noticed that it is difficult to satisfy all the wanted changes in this thread. Especially if people do not agree with each other.
You are right, redfront 1.4 is already very good. Personally, I think the major problem is the "too many units". I will talk more of this problem later.
Your point of view is wise. Let’s make the minimum changes necessary and then players are more than welcome to make their own upgrades.
I have reviewed the rules files, and effectively with the wonder "Soviet Armament Industry" in Sverdlosk, there’s no need to use new slots to eliminate some units loopholes. All the concerned units (la-5, Refugees…) are upgraded with the wonder.
Most needed changes are in the Events files...
And what about P-39 and Valentine/Sherman for the lend lease?Comment
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• Eliminate the “Too many units” problem.
- Change the .scn file by thinning out the rear echelons of the German forces by ~170 of the weakest units (Romanian Inf, Wehrmacht etc.)is a part of the solution.
• But The problem is also in the events file. For example, when a Wehrmacht unit is killed, five units are spawned (in the first Events file).
In the first Events file, I listed the units spawned after unit killed event :
(uk : unit killed, us : unit spawned, de : destination)
[list=1][*]uk : Red Army us : Wehrmacht SG de : Leningrad[*]uk : Wehrmacht us : PzKw III Panzer de : Novgorod[*]uk : Partisans us : 105mm "Wespe" de : Kholm[*]uk : Ju-87 "Stuka" us : Wehrmacht SG de : Kaluga[*]uk : Wehrmacht us : StuG IIIC de : Bryansk[*]uk : PzKw IV Panzer us : PzKw IV Panzer de : Kursk[*]uk : Wehrmacht us : PzKw IV Panzer de : near Kursk[*]uk : Wehrmacht us : Wehrmacht SG de : Kursk[*]uk : Ju-87 "Stuka" us : Ju-87 "Stuka" de : Perekop[*]uk : Wehrmacht us : Wehrmacht SG de : Perekop[*]uk : Red Army us : Wehrmacht de : Perekop[/list=1]
What's the solution? 1 unit killed = 1 unit spawned?
In this case, we should have to change the way Nemo has designed these events.Comment
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@fairline
In the redfront.scn file you downloaded, I've added a grassland in 28,148 which was an ocean in 1.4. I forgot to change it...
Sorry...
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@MacGalleo:
I am glad we can see eye-to-eye!
I will not comment on the unit changes table until others have chimed in...As this is not all about my opinion.
I think this week we will be posting the new units and other GFX,
so then we can see what is happening on the units file.
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Beyond the conversion beeing made, I personally hope for a volountary 1.5/6 redux patch, which will make the scenario more enjoyable. Apart from the added new graphics, which are amazing as already mentioned, I personally see no particular reason to play the 1.4 version that, with what has been discovered regarding flaws and tricks by Agricola and the likes, will only end prematurely in a certain Soviet victory. Let's commend the artistic initiative of MacGalleo. The patch will most surely improve the game. I salute the effort!
Just my thoughts.
Last edited by Eivind IV; November 18, 2007, 16:29.Comment
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Thanks, Curt, but that zip has the original artwork of Nemo.Originally posted by curtsibling
Here you are, tech!
Fairline, when you release your version with the GFX redux, I'd be honored to host it on my site.Last edited by techumseh; November 18, 2007, 18:49.Comment
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I think what fairline and I have in mind is to post up a new thread for the GFX upgrade of RF 1.4,
then people can (if they wish) use that as a basis for new upgraded and edited versions of Red Front.
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