Red Front for ToT

[Dr Kellogg]

Fantastic news!
I agree with you to try to stick with the original RF. But some minor changes (use of the advanced ToT event makro language to make previous events work better and use of ToT-only options, for example adding the invisible-flag to the Einsatz-Kommando) would definately be ok!

[our_man]

Great idea Fairline.

I thoroughly enjoyed your graphical update of John Ellis' Hellas scenario, it really gave the scenario a new lease of life - and that was only replacing MGE graphics. I'm looking forward to something special with Red Front ToT.

[fairline]

Thanks guys, it's good to see there is a potential audience here.

Catfish - that's another one I owe you, cheers Your conversion has saved me a lot of time and head-scratching!

Right, on with the graphics redux!

Harry and Curt - shall we share stuff by e-mail, or do you want to post files here as and when they are finished? BTW, you both know how slow I am so this project will take some time to complete

[fairline]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
...The player in me wants to add and add to the game, but then again if we change it to drastically then it won't really be Nemo's Red Front anymore, now will it?

I would take this view as well. I want to keep Nemo's scenario intact but give it some 15-bit graphical polish.

Perhaps there are some instances, such as the invisibility flag for the Einsatz-commando and partisans described by Dr K., which would warrant inclusion, but I'm opposed to events or rules changes. I take Agricola's points about the 'too many units' problem, although I don't recall that being a problem during my games with RF. I guess that just highlights my lack of skill in preserving units however . Has this been a problem for other people?

I would be pleased to host this jewel on my site when it's done.

Thanks Tech, that's great

[Harry Tuttle]

@Fairline: I think just posting the files here would be easier. We could all see them at once, converse more easily, and it would allow for input from everyone else, especially if a possible problem arises in response to one of the ideas.

How open do you want this? There won't be to many surprises with the update I suppose.

Maybe we should put up a disclaimer that all of this is a work in progress so no one gets a weird idea as to the finished quality?

EDIT: Oh yeah, don't worry about taking your time. I need to finish up my latest and I'm sure Curt has plenty of projects to keep his mind busy.

[fairline]

I agree Harry - we'll post here if that's OK with Curt. I don't see any need for secrecy at all; I was thinking more of file size upload restrictions with 'Poly.

BTW - I still owe you some stuff for Gold Gultch. Can you remind me exactly what was needed (if it still is!). IIRC it was faction leaders (?)

[fairline]

Catfish: I've just read your ToT changes list; all that was well beyond the call of duty and I'm sure I'd have missed a lot of it had I converted RF myself. A big thanks for that, and we'll be sure to include this list of changes (and credits) in the final revision readme.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by fairline
I agree Harry - we'll post here if that's OK with Curt. I don't see any need for secrecy at all; I was thinking more of file size upload restrictions with 'Poly.

BTW - I still owe you some stuff for Gold Gultch. Can you remind me exactly what was needed (if it still is!). IIRC it was faction leaders (?)

Yep, 5 white, anglo saxon saloon owners, pompous and rude as all get out.

[CapTVK]

Red Front redux

I like the name already!

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Fairline
I take Agricola's points about the 'too many units' problem, although I don't recall that being a problem during my games with RF. I guess that just highlights my lack of skill in preserving units however . Has this been a problem for other people?

Apparently so. I did a bit of searching with Web Crawler. Here are some of the "hits" from 2001 to 2003:





The problem arises almost solely during the fall of '41, and seems to depend on a player's strategy. I believe that preserving units has less to do with it than being aggressive and killing a lot of Wehrmacht units which each spawns 5 replacements.

When it happened to me, I was so totally p****d off at not getting the badly needed units which I had built, that I wiped out a bunch of low-grade, backwater German units in Germany and Poland to make room in the units table. My sense of frustration seems to be shared by some of the posters on the above threads.

I certainly understand and can't argue with your reluctance to change anything fundamental in the scen. It's just that you and others will be putting major work into upgrading the graphics and converting to TOT while three easily remedied, significant flaws remain in the scen.

[Harry Tuttle]

What's your suggestion? I'm not to familiar with the spawn points, but are the German units spawning in useless areas?

[Catfish]

Originally posted by curtsibling
I found the posts on ToT conversion problems at CFC.

It's not a very comprehensive list though. The list of fixes in Red Front is considerably larger (in the .zip file) and I suspect it'll grow if people start comparing the conversion to the original. For example, one thing I noticed last night is that there is no contact with other civs in the Foreign Minister screen. There is in the FW version.

Originally posted by curtsibling
I found that my scen works fine until I add the 'rules.txt' file in.

Actually I meant that I may not necessarily have the answers – but it reads both ways.

Originally posted by curtsibling
If you have the time or inclination, take a look at the rules zip file in the 'stamping out bugs' thread.

I guess I'm too late on the scene. Good you got it sorted.

Originally posted by fairline
Catfish - that's another one I owe you, cheers Your conversion has saved me a lot of time and head-scratching!

I expect lots of tanks and planes and stuff in return. That reminds me, there's something else I forgot about from a few weeks back:



Sorry, but it hasn't been touched since you asked me about it. Got to finish off the cities and fix some of the river connections. I'd better head back to the Cave.

Originally posted by fairline
Catfish: I've just read your ToT changes list; all that was well beyond the call of duty and I'm sure I'd have missed a lot of it had I converted RF myself. A big thanks for that, and we'll be sure to include this list of changes (and credits) in the final revision readme.

If it's going to be done, then it might as well be done properly. I'm guessing that very few people would know about all of those CivConverter issues. A list of any changes should definitely be in the accompanying documentation. Anyway, if someone wants a straight conversion of RF (with the exception of some of the sounds), it's there. One thing I forgot to mention: you don't need to tamper with any of the sprites in the Original directory. All you need to do is deselect Animated Units in your Graphics Options. Simple. Interference from animated units would be negligible in any event.

BTW, in case you decide to change the icons for the units with hidden health bars, I've attached the source BMP files for the static sprites (for use with SpriteGen). Note that all but the required units have been removed to reduce the size of the output files.

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I certainly understand and can't argue with your reluctance to change anything fundamental in the scen. It's just that you and others will be putting major work into upgrading the graphics and converting to TOT while three easily remedied, significant flaws remain in the scen.

I guess that could be the Red Front Redux Deluxe version.

[rmsharpe]

I...must...have...those...roads!!!

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Harry TuttleWhat's your suggestion? I'm not to familiar with the spawn points, but are the German units spawning in useless areas?

No, the German units are spawning where they will do the most good for the German advance. Nemo did a great job on selecting alternate spawn sites as the German advance moves east.

Most of the "Too many units" problem during the summer of '41 is caused by the event that spawns 5 infantry and armored units whenever a Wehrmacht is killed. The effect of this event is that, if the Germans lose 50 Wehrmacht, they actually have a net gain of 200 units.

I would suggest using the same approach as Colwyn uses in RF 1.5. He has reduced the number of initial German units by eliminating ~300 weak, rear echelon formations. His approach has the great advantage that it does not in any way weaken the strength of the German advance.

I think that the event (winter '41-'42) that creates 2 Partisans for every Red Army unit killed should be eliminated and replaced by an event that spawns no more than 1 Partisan per turn, somewhere in the Pripyat Marshes. A player who takes advantage of the present situation can easily have an army of 300+ Partisans behind German lines in May '42. This completely upsets the balance of the game and is sheer nonsense historically. Also, I doubt that Nemo envisaged a player building numerous cheap and useless Red Army units and getting them killed off as means of obtaining twice as many very useful units.

As for the unintended T-34/76 to JS-2 upgrade, it can be eliminated by using one of the extra unit slots in TOT for the JS-2 in the rules for summer '44, winter '44-'45 and summer '45.


@Catfish
Please don't get me started on what else needs fixing in RF 1.4 and 1.5 in order to achieve a "Red Front Redux Deluxe version". I'd bore everyone to tears.

[jim panse]

I will soon start the debate over new graphics when I get back home from class tonight, my dear gentlemen