The America of ancient Greece

[Varwnos]

Hi, i strted working on a new scen, about the ancient greek world, which is starting in the 7th century and is about mainland Greece, Magna Grecia + Sicily, and asia minor. In theory this will be about how the city states grew and how the colonies became idependent. It should be ending with the Pelloponesian war, although its a bit too ambitius, with the persian wars in between!

my plan is to have the original nation-states grow into their unions, so:

-Athens ---> Athenian League
-Spara ---> Spartan union
-Phocaea (ionian city, founding city of Marseille and others) ----> Delian league (not exactly historical, but realistic in a civ2 scen)
-Locroi (important city, and even more important power in the persian wars, more than 50.000 Locrian soldiers died in those wars) ----> Thebes (this isnt historical, but -Thebes in a way replaced the vacuum of power left in south-central Greece after the decadence of the commercial power of Locroi, which had some colonies in Italy)
-Sybarite (Sybaris, or Sybarite, was originally a colony, but then became independent and founded important colonies of its own, like Elea, in west-central Italy) ----> Colony supremacy side

The 6th side might by Chalkis, in Euboea, since it founded a number of colonies in the Chalkidike peninsula (named after Chalkis, in Macedonia) and elsewere. However i might opt for Syracusai-Syracuse

The 7th side probably will be reserved for the independent greek cities, since trade will be important in the scen.

I already picked units by others, but, as you can see in the map, up to now i havent placed a lot of the cities. I am interested in finding if there were any Tyrrhenian-Etruscan cities in the part of Italy i have in the game

also any ideas are always welcome (for example if you have a different city-state to suggest)

ps: the phrase "The America of Ancient Greece" was a phrase used by Fernando Pessoa, the national poet of Portugal. A very sad person, but i liked this parallelism between greece and rome, and europe and america the entire phrase reads: "Rome was the America of Ancient Greece, and thus its complete missjudgement"

pd: ugly map? What ugly map? -- sorry, my manic compulsive syndrome has gotten the best of me

[Mercator]

Good God! That is one ugly map! That isn't the map you'll be using, is it? Seriously.

I'm sorry I couldn't start with a more positive note.

[curtsibling]

Can you help him towards an imporved map, Merc?

Being the legendary map king of CIV2!

[Mercator]

You mean, something like this?

I made it at about the same scale. I expanded the map a little, so I was sure everything was covered. You can always cut it down. Only the land/ocean is done so far. Rivers will come, but putting all the terrains in will take quite a bit more time.

[curtsibling]

Damn nice map!

Your scen would look the business on that, varwnos!

[Stefan Härtel]

If I can be of any help, varwnos, tell me

[Mercator]

*bows*

The map size is approximately the same, but because of the "bloated" look of your map, it's actually significantly smaller in some parts. I might need to make it a little bigger.

And it's all derived from modern-day data, too, so there might very well be some geographical errors for the era you're portraying... *looks at the first map* But nevermind that.

[Heresson]

Indeed, a very nice map, Mercator. I hate when people are using ugly maps in historical scenarios. How can I get into the atmosphere of such a scn if its map looks like a fictional one... How did You do it so fast?

[Gagliaudo]

@varwnos : that's a good scenario idea...

and now...

@mercatore : there's a wonderful map for this !
"Original" question for you (never done before, right Heresson? )
How did you do it so fast???

@Heresson:
Sorry,I apologize I'm in late for answering to your message (technical problems...) I'll do it as soon as I can.

[tanelorn]

Greek colonisation had already started back in Mycenean times, by colonising Cyprus.
To my knowledge, the cities that led the 2nd Greek colonisation (the 1st being the colonisation of the Ionian coast and the Aegean islands as a result of the Doric invasion) were Corinth, that founded most colonies in Italy and Sicily and was the richest city till the ascendancy of Athens; Miletus, that founded most of the Black Sea colonies; Chalkis and Eretria in Evoea and Megara. Corinth and Megara were Dorian cities, the rest were Ionian.

Greek colonies in the Black sea:
Sinope, Amisos Trapezus, Fasis, Dioscurias, Khersonenus (Sevastopol), Theodosia, Panticapeon (Kerch) Fanagoreia, Olbia, Istros, Tomoi (Kostanza) Apollonia, and Tanais (in the Azov sea, the most remote NE colony) mostly by Miletos.
Messembria (Varna?) and Heracleia Pontice by Megara
Also Pityous, Ermonasa, Tripolis, Kotyora, Kerasus, Side, Themiskyra, Oenoe, Stefane, Kytoros, Kromna, Amastris, Tieion, Kalpe, Agchialos, Krounoi, Kallatis, Tyras, Odessos and Ordesous (the 2nd close to Odessa), Salamydesus and Apollonia logically most by Miletus

In Bosporus & the Hellespont:
Byzantium (Costantinople/ Istambul), Chalkedon, Selymbria, by Megara
Kyzikos & Abydos by Miletus
Sestos by Lesbos
Astakos, Myrleia, Kios, Priapos, Lampsakos& Perinthos by Megara or Miletus I think.

In Southern Asia Minor:
Phasilis, Kelendris, Soloi and Nagidos

In Thrace:
Aenus by Aeolis
Maronea by Khios
Abdera by Clazomenae

In Chalkideke:
the cape of Pallene by Eretria
Potidea by Corinth
the rest by Chalkis, Olynth being the most prominent of about 30 Chalkidean colonies in the area, like Stageira, Amphipolis, Therme, Akanthos etc.

In the Adriatic & Ionion sea:
Corcyra, Leucas, Apollonia,Epidamnus and Lissos by Corinth
Also Tragyrion and Epidurus in the Dalmatian coast.

In Italy:
Kyme (Cumae) and Parthenope also known as the "new city" (Neapolis, Naples) by Evoean Kyme (near Chalkis)
Tarantas by Sparta also Kallipolis and Hydrous nearby. Angon "elbow" (Ancona) was Doric also, but I am not sure which city established it.
Sybaris, Metapontion and Kroton by the Acheans
Locroi Epizefyrii by Locris
Regio by Chalkis
Adria was an Etruscan city in the Po estuary later occupied by Syracuse
Pyrgoi in the Tiber estuary, by Ionians (Chalkis?) and Achelas nearby
Thurioi was the only colony Athens ever founded outside mainland Greece and that was a political maneuver, more like a showcase "city on the hill" expirement.

In Sicily:
Zangle by Chalkis was renamed Messene (Messina) when Messenian refugees fled there from the Spartan occupation.
Tauromenion (Taormina) & Imera by Chalkis
Naxos, Leontini and Katane by Chalkis and Naxos together.
Syracuse by Corinth
Hyblea Megara by Megara, later relocated to Selinuntas
Gela by Rhodes and Crete
Acragantas (Agrigento) by Gela

In France:
Massalia (Marseilles) by Phocaea
Nicaea (Nice), Antipolis, Ierapolis, Monoikos "single house" (Monaco),Olbia, Agathe, Leukipolis, Rhode, Emporia by Massalia and Phocaea
Alalia in Corsica by Dorians

In Spain:

Zakantha and Kallipolis (Barcelona) by Massalia or Phocea I think... also Alonae "fields" and Hemeroscopion "daywatch"

In North Africa:

Naucratis in Egypt by Ionians
5 colonies led by Cyrene in Libya, by Thera and Crete. Cyrenians founded Barce and Hesperides. Limen Menelaou is somewhere in eastern Libya.
some traces of early Greek colonisation in Tynisia (in Nabel "Neapolis")

I can get founding dates for most of these cities if you want.
Colonies by Locroi = one
My point being that Corinth controlled directly or indirectly most of the western trade, and offered the financial support and motivation (its own mercantile interests and comercial rivalry with Athens) for the wars Sparta fought. Consider making it its on civ. Besides, it was the leading Greek city state in the 700's. And flamboyantly sinful, even by the morals of the age. Why do you think St. Paul wrote their grandchildren all those letters???

[Harry Tuttle]

Very nice idea! I've always wanted to play a good Greek colonization scenario. Map #2 is definately the way to go. Very realistic!

[curtsibling]

@tanelorn!
Good to see ya!

[Mercator]

How did You do it so fast?

I only did the coastlines, getting all the terrains right will take days at least...

I went a little overboard with the answer to that question, so I created a new thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112804

[Varwnos]

hm....

first of all i didnt exactly anticipate the first comment, although the map i made isnt accurate, but maps of the period werent accurate either, and the main attempt was to have space in Greece, but

i guess that i will use the accurate map

although i dont see much point in having ultra accurate maps, my other two scens have maps that rule, but ultimately they weren't good scens...

Tanelorn: your list is amazing! but i am not trying to depict the colonization process, just the revolutions and endless war between the colonies.

anyway i am off, today its a very nice sunny day, ideal for a walk

[Mercator]

Originally posted by varwnos
first of all i didnt exactly anticipate the first comment,

although the map i made isnt accurate, but maps of the period werent accurate either,

That's a bad excuse. If you wanted to simulate that, maybe you could base your map on an ancient greek map. And not only are the coastlines awful, the terrain is even worse.

and the main attempt was to have space in Greece, but i guess that i will use the accurate map

Do you think mine is big enough? The Peloponnesus, for instance is about 3 times smaller! I can remake the map a bit bigger if you want.

although i dont see much point in having ultra accurate maps, my other two scens have maps that rule, but ultimately they weren't good scens...

Sure, a good map does not guarantee a good scenario, nor a bad map a bad scenario. But unless you have a really good reason to have a bad map, you could at least try a bit harder. Not to forget what Heresson said, it's part of making your scenario historically accurate. And I'm afraid I can't help the "ultra".