The America of ancient Greece

[fairline]

Originally posted by varwnos
You missed the point fairlne

Your right there, I certainly did. What was your point? Why did you post the map if you didn't want anyone to comment on it?

[Varwnos]

fairline the thing is that you arent really contributing anything by ressurecting a finished with topic (the map). if you are so keen to know why i posted it, although i maintain that it was pretty obvious, my reason was to show that if i wanted to i could make a more accurate map without trying much, and given that i wanted to make it ultra accurate i could do that as well, its not that hard. i just dont see the point in doing that.

there you go, now i hope that this is done with

I would be interested in seing some graphics of the period, i will probably use some of Stefan's units, but i am looking for terrain. Anyone have any suggestions?

[fairline]

Originally posted by varwnos
fairline the thing is that you arent really contributing anything by ressurecting a finished with topic (the map). if you are so keen to know why i posted it, although i maintain that it was pretty obvious, my reason was to show that if i wanted to i could make a more accurate map without trying much, and given that i wanted to make it ultra accurate i could do that as well, its not that hard. i just dont see the point in doing that.

Well I must have been very obtuse in not realising quite what your point was. You say it was to prove that you could make an accurate map; you didn't achieve this and it wasn't unreasonable to make a suggestion as to how it could be improved. From your posts it would seem that you take any attempt at constructive criticism as a personal insult. That's a shame.

there you go, now i hope that this is done with

Now it's done with.

[Gagliaudo]

infos

@tanelorn: That's all good. I'd like only suggest vawrnos to use ancient cities' names. I'm not Greek, but at school I studied ancient Greek,and I remember something...

@vawrnos: maybe can help, just an add to @tanelorn's precious infos:
***METROPOLEIS (cities and peoples):
IONIANS-
(in Greece): Chalkis, Eretria;
(in Ionia-AsiaMinor): Kyme; ("Dodekapolis") Chios, Eretria, Teos, Kolophon, Ephesos, Samos, Miletos, Priene, Phokaia, Klazomene, Lebedos, Myos;
(other islands): Naxos;
DORIANS-
(in Greece): Korinthos, Megara, Lakedaimon;
(in Ionia-AsiaMinor): Knidos, Halikarnassos, Lindos, Kamyros, Ialysos, Koos;
(other islands): Thera, Kreta
EOLIANS- Lesbos (Mitilene & Metimna)
ACHEANS-
LOCHRIANS-
---------------------------------------
***COLONIES:
-in Black Sea (PONTOS EUXINOS):
IONIANS- Sesamos, Kytoros, Sinope (Sinops? 631 BC), Amisos, Kotyora, Trapezus, Phasis, Dioskyrias, Pithyus, Phanagoreia, Tanais, Pantikapeion, Theodosia, Chersonesos, Olbia (610 BC), Tyras, Histros, Tomoi(Tomis?), Odessos, Apollonia, Anchialos (=Agchialos) (mostly by Miletos);
DORIANS- Mesembria, Herakleia Pontike (by Byzantion or Chalkedon)
-in Bosphoros/Ellesponton:
DORIANS- Byzantion, Chalkedon, Selymbria (by Megara)
IONIANS- Kyzikos, Abydos; Astakos, Lampsakos, Perinthos
EOLIANS- Sestos (by Lesbos)

-in Asia Minor:
EOLIANS- Assos
IONIAN- Eretria (by... guess who?)
-in Southern Asia Minor (KARIA, LYKIA, PANPHYLIA):
DORIANS- Phaselis, Aspendos;
IONIANS- Sydai, Kelenderis, Solis

-in Thrace (THRAKIA):
EOLIANS- Oinos
IONIANS- Maroneia, Abdera
-in Chalkidike:
DORIAN- Potidaia (by Korinthos, Dorian)
IONIANS- Olynthos, Akanthos, Thermai, Stagyros(?)

-in Adriatic/Ionian Sea:
DORIANS- Kerkyra, Leukas, Apollonia, Epidamnos (by Korinthos)

in "Magna Grecia" (MEGALE HELLAS) = Greeks in Italy&Sicily
-In Italia:
IONIANS- Pithekyssa(770 ca.), Kyme (757), Parthenope/Neapolis (by Kyme, near Phokaia, in Ionia=central AsiaMinor); Rhegion (748), Siris(ca 675,by Kolofone in Ionia), Pyxus(7th centuryBC) ; Eleia? (535)
DORIANS- Taras (706 BC by Sparta/Lakedaimon), Kallipolis (5th centuryBC), Hydrus
ACHEANS- Metapontion (703 BC), Sybaris (708), Kroton (708), Kaulonia, Laos (7th centuryBC), Poseidonia (650)
LOCHRIANS- Lochroi(Lokroi?) Epizephyroi (673 by region of eastern Lokris), Medma, Terina, Hipponion (6th centuryBC) (by Lokroi Epiz., with Dorians)
*note about Thurioi: founded in 444/3 BC as panellenic colony by Perikles(Athenian), near the site of ancient Sybaris (destroyed in 510 BC by Kroton & allies).
-In Sicilia (SYKELIA):
IONIANS- Naxos (736), Katane & Leontinoi (730 by sicilian Naxos ), Zankle/Messana (7th centBC), Mylai(716,by Zankle), Himera (648), Tauromenion (by Chalkis & island of Naxos);
DORIANS- Sirakosiai (ca735 by Korinthos); Akrai (664) & Kamarina (598) (by Sirakosiai)
Megara Hyblaia (728 by Megara), Gelai (688, by Rhodos & Kreta), Selinus (628), Akragas (580),

-In France:
IONIANS- Massalia (ca600 BC, by Phokaia), Nikaia, Monoikos, Antipolis, Olbia, Agathe, (by Massalia&Phokaia); Aleria/Alalia (546ca by Phokaians, fleed after Persians conquered Phokaia)
-In Spain:
IONIANS- Emporia, Rhodai(?) (by Massalia & Phokaia), AkraLeuke, Hemeroskopeion, Mainake
-In NorthAfrica:
IONIANS- Naukratis (ca610 BC, Ionians);
DORIANS- Kyrene(by Thera&Kreta); Euesperides,Barke(byKyrene);
-----------------------------
***NOT GREEKS
-Etruscans: called TYRSENOI by Greeks, and RASNA by themselves.
Capua (northern near Neapolis); Hatria/Hadria (on Adriatic Sea)
-Carthaginians: called PHOINIKES by Greeks, PUNICI/CARTHAGINENSES by Romans, (called maybe PELESET in ancient times, in their origin land, today called Palestine...)
Qart Hadasht (latin:Carthago/greek:Karchedon), Ityke (Utica), Hadrumetum, Aspis/Clypea; Kossura (?), Melita;
Panormos, Motye, Lilybaion(Lilybaeum), Eryx,
-others will come... (if interests)
------------------------------
***CITY NAMES
--Not sure: Phanagoria/-reia, Tanais/Thanais, Pantikapeon/eion?, Kypros, Kyrene/-nai?,Kreta,Euboea>Eubaia? Euoboia? Elea?Eleia?
--Quite sure (mostly translating latin>greek): Pithyus, Aenus>Oinos, Khios>Chios, Soloi>Solis, Phasilis>Phaselis, Potidea>Potidaia, Clazomene>Klazomenai/-ne?,Corcyra>Kerkyra, A(m)nphipolis, Therme>Thermai, Ankon (founded by Dionysos I "the Elder",tyrant of Sirakosiai in early 4th century BC), Lokroi(Lochroi?) Epizephyroi, Akra Leuke (Lucentum, od.Alicante)
--Sure: KORINTHOS (Corinth is in USA!!! Damned default civ2city!!! STOP with it,please), Olynthos (see before...), TARAS (latin: Tarentum), SIRAKOSIAI (Syracuse is in Usa,too...), Akragas (Agrigentum), RHODOS (historically, the city called 'Rhodos' was founded by a "sinoikismos": Kamyros, Lyndos and Ialysos, the 3 original and very ancient cities in the island of Rhodos, united themselves in one, in 408 BC, while Rhodians were uprising - helped by Spartans - against Athenians during the Peloponnesian War)

I APOLOGIZE for this large post, hope it can help, or almost be interesting. Have a good work!

[tanelorn]

Very nice! I only have to add that "Peleset" is the ancient name of the Philistines. According to the scriptures, they came from Caphtor, which is Crete. Recent (2 years ago methinks) excavations in Ascelon revealed lots of Mycenean artifacts. Dunno if its kind of a full circle... its what was actually going on in the 1200's BC is anyone's guess.
Also Phoenician is supposed to be an early form of Hebrew
or the other way around.
Varwnos, give us a teaser! have you been doing any artwork?

[Varwnos]

Actually i have, but not much, and i was offline for some days here is the pic, i reowrked the ancient greek city series, and made two new structures, which arent of any special use though, or rather one isnt (empty airbase) the other is a block (occupied by 0 movement air unit airbase). they are next to important cities and can be seen in the pic

[Varwnos]

Do you have a link to a map of ancient Rhodian cities? since atm i only have Rodos, but have space for at least 2 cities there

as for acheans:

what was the city in mainland Greece called? Patrai was probably formed later on i think, but atm i have Patrai as part of the colony supremacy side, since most of the other cities are by acheans (sybaris, metapontium etc)

[Varwnos]

And here are the reworked cities, the colours are a bit messed up though

@ Gagliaudo:
Very nice info, ty atm i have placed only 50 or so cities, but in the end there will be at least 100 (or more)
Sicily is complete probably, and most of Pelloponesos is as well, other than that and the southern tip of land above the dark sea (not in the map originally, but i added it so as to have Khersona and Pantikapeon) most other areas arent full of cities. I am looking for some detailed maps with a lot of cities, and if possible owners

the civs atm are as stated, but that can change

the colony supremacy side is acheans mostly, with the adittion of syrakusai (starts as korinthian) later on. the problem is when the game shall be beginning as well, since as things stand most colonies are corinthian or central powers (megara-thebes-khalkis, and it is megara + khalkis that dominate the colonies, thebes is there because it is between the two cities, and later on was very important).

so once again sides atm are:

-Sparte (only Sparte and nearby Helos and the colony of Taras-Tarantas)
-Athena (only Athena and nearby Peireas) (i dont know if there was any athenian settlement in the island of Aegina, we are talking about 7th century bc atm, but the date can change)
-Central powers (Megara, Thebes, Khalkis and tens of colonies)
-Korinthos (Korinthos and tens of colonies, no nearby city though, dont know if that is correct)
-Independants (most of Greece, and probably some cities in sicily and asia minor, just to strenghen them up, not decided yet)
-Miletos (Miletos and a lot of colonies, no nearby cities yet)
Colony supremacy side (the Achean colonies, and Patrai, not sure at all if Patrai existed at the time though)


-

[Varwnos]

Ok, cities atm in pelloponesos & southern Greece (Attica and a bit to the north)

Pelloponesos:

Sparte
Korinthos
Argos
Nemea (near Argos)
Stymphalis (nearby as well)
Sikyon (near Korinthos)
Mantineia
Tegea
Helos
Epidarauros
Troizena (Troezen)
Megalopolis
Messene
Pylos
Olympia
Patrai (pretty sure it didnt exist, but Achaea was a important area-state)

-in the island of Aegina (between Pelloponesos and Attica)

Aegina

-In Attica

Athena
Perieas
Eleysis- Eleysina

In Sterea Hellas (north of Attica)

Megara
Plataiai (Plateae in latin?)
Eleytherai
Thevai (Thebes)
Epos
Cheroneia
Locris (same deal with Patrai)
Naupaktos
Delphoi
Orchomenos

-In the island of Euboea

Khalkis
Eretria
i need help here with where Euboean Kyme was! And also owners, according to the list of nations i have atm)

thats all for now

[Varwnos]

ok, here is a final post (i guess i made up for lost time ) with a pic of part of the map (most of italy and sicily arent shown) so you can get an idea of where i still need cities.

you can post suggestions about units as well, atm i am using hobbes units, perhaps alex units can do as well. I wont use fairline's since he has too much of an ego and i am sure he doesnt mind anyway

[Arthedain]

Looks nice so far! Unfortunately I'm not an expert on this topic so I'm not a big help for you. Good luck with this one anyways!

[Gagliaudo]

@vawrnos:
I think I can be a bit useful for you, for the cities you're searching for.
It would be easier if you send me the map (I'll respect your 'copyright' of course! ), so I can give more detailed infos.
However it seems a good work, I think it promise a lot, and I like this period very much.
I was thinking about quite a pair of scenarios, but - don't worry - starting from different basis respect to yours - but I think collaboration in this forum is very useful and beautiful too.
Personally, I learned a lot by you civers, thanks to these threads.
If I can help, I'll be glad to share my infos with you all.
Now I'll read carefully your questions, I can stay at pc in this moment.
See you later, and keep on your nice creation!

[Varwnos]

@Arthedain: ty for your support yet again

@Gagliaudo:

Thank you,

-don't pay any attention to my question about city placement in Rodos, i already placed the three cities

-The map is by mercatore uno

-Basically i am having trouble finding cities for northern and central Greece, since those areas were either part of the kingdom of Macedonia, or were mostly agricultural and cut off from trade, so backward in relation to the south. Atm cities in those regions are only:
-In Epiros

Dodone
(Anactorium probably was roman?)

-In lower Macedonia-
none!

-In Central Macedonia
Pella (Macedonian, probably independant here)

-In the Khalkidike peninsula:

Stagyra (homecity of Aristotle, Khalkidean)
Olynthos (Central powers- Khalkidean)
Potidaia (Korinthian)
Therme (Khalkidean)

-In northern Macedonia
Amphipolis (owner?)

-In Eastern Macedonia

Abdera (owner?)
Thasos, homeplace of Pythagoras, no owner (independant?)

-In Thrace
Anchialos (Miletian)
Apolloneia (Miletian)
Messembria (Central powers)
Selymbria (Central Powers)
Tomoi (Miletian)
Perinthos, Maroneia & Sestos owned by Korinthos
Byzantion (Miletian?)

-In the Hadriatic
Epidamnos (Korinthian)

Some questions:
did these cities exist in the 7th century bc or in the 6th century bc at least?

-Demetrias (Macedonia)
-Phillipoi (Macedonia)
-Anactorion (Anactorium, it is/was in coastal Epiros)
-Aigai (in asia minor, near Phokaia/Phocaea, but in the mainland)
-Herkaleia Latmo (asia monor, in the mainland, relatively near to Miletos)
-Iassos (asia minor, coastal, near Halikarnassos)

Also i am wondering if Sardis should be in the game, and if it is if it should be barbarian or independant (since there was trade with the Lydian empire)

[Gagliaudo]

@varwnos:

Demetrias is an hellenistic name, the early name was Pagase (I think it existed in 6-7th century, Thessalia was developed).
Philippoi I think is late macedonian (age of Philippos II, Alexandros' father),not sur of this.
Dodone maybe >Dodona
Beware: Megalopolis (if it's the Arcadian one) was founded (by synekismos) in 369 bC by Arcadian helped by Thebans (Peolpidas&Epaminondas) to threaten Sparta with a strong hostile neighbour, suddendly it became greater and important (Polybios was born there, if I remember).
Little question: but... Pythagoras wasn't from Samos ???
Amphipolis was founded in 437/6 bC from Athenaioi, who tried to found a colony there before, too, but Thrakes destroyed their early attempts... BTW,early name of the place in which took place Anphipolis was Ennea Odoi ('nine streets').
That's all for this moment, but I'm really glad to be helpful, and this evenig (latest tomorrow morning I'll say you much, hope you'll like it )
See soon

[Varwnos]

Pythagoras was from Samos yes! sorry about that, i am confusing where Samos is, and Thasos is (i think) nearby. Hm, the island below Amphipolis probably is called Samothrake, but i still am not sure where Samos is (i am not very good with geography)

as for your info, hm, Megalopolis and Amphipolis are later than 6th century, that isnt very welcome news! The thing is that there dont seem to be a lot of 6th century cities in the north, or in western Greece, and i may have to use cities that were there later on, otherwise those regions will be desolate. What would you prefer?
the positive to this is that most of the game will be centered in Pelloponesos and Attica and south/central Greece, as is reasonable (also in the asia minor coast, and in sicily, and less in italy)
the negative is that there isnt a lot of space in that part of Greece.
Ofcourse i could just use great defences for those cities, so the fighting will mostly have to be done outside southern Greece.

-i added some more cities, but no more than 10, i will have the list in another post, along with the magna grecia and asia minor cities.

-i need some list and placement of:
Etruscan cities (really the ones i have arent checked, there is Rome, and Castrum Novum, and some other one)
Lydian Empire cities (atm there is only Sardis)

--on second thought here is the list now--

new cities:

-in Pelloponesos
Elis (in the south-west)

-in the Hadriatic
Apolloneia

-in Sterea Hellas
Locris-Locroi is out
new cities:
Leuktra
Kalidonia
Pleuron
Koroneia (i think it is new, dont remember if it was in my previous list)

-in Asia minor
Knydos
Kollosaia (i think it was called Kollosaia, its citizents were called Kollassaeis)
Teos (near klazomenai, not 100% sure of the name)

-islands
Samos (found it! its near asia minor )
Kos

List of the Asia minor cities atm:
Lampsakos
Assos (not sure if it was there in the 6th century BC)
Phocaia
Klazomenai
Smyrne (same as with Assos)
Kolophona
Ephesos
Aigai (same as with Assos etc)
Priene
Miletos
Alikarnassos-Halikarnassos
Iassos (same)
Herakleia Latmo (Herakleia epi Latmo) (same)
Knydos
Teos
Kyzikos
Khalkedon
Amissos
Sinope
(and Sardis)

(more are needed!)

-Sicilian cities:
Zankle-Messene
Hmera-Hemera
kaleacte
Naxos
Leontinoi (it is plural, isnt it?)
Katane (not sure if that should be plural, dont know its etymology)
Megara Hyblaea (Hyblaia i guess)
Syrakusai
Akrai
Kannanina (dont know if that was the original, it sounds strange)
Geia
Akragantas
Panormo
Skyros
and Motya (?!) which is in some island (?) next to the western edge of Sicily. Dont know what the correct name should be!

-Italian cities
Reggio (here i am not sure if it is Reggio, or Regkio, both could be correct, not sure which of the two is)
Locroi Zephyrioi (Epizephyrioi)
Croton (or Crotona?)
Sybaris
Thuroioi? (if it is plural)
Herakleia
Metapontion
Taras-Tarantas
Poseidonia
Elea
Neapolis
Kyme
and the etruscan/barbarian cities of:
Rome
Castrum Novum
Vetunonia
Seria Gallia