The America of ancient Greece

[Gagliaudo]

poleis kai onomata

Hi Varwnos, new infos for you:
You can put other Arcadian cities (instead of Megalopolis): Tegea, Mantineia, Orchomenos (yes, another one: I call this... Orchomenos A, and the other - in Beotia - Orchomenos B ) or someone else.
Island in front of Heion (on the coast south Of Anphipolis) IS Thasos. Samothrake is more eastern, nearer to Chersonesos Thrakikos.
Asia Minor: Phokaia, Knidos, Kolossai, Pteria (In Lydia, there was a battle between Lydioi and Persai). Smyrne existed, you're right; but it was destroyed between /th-6th century (from Lydioi, or someone else, like Phrygioi or Kymmerioi, or boh? Later it became important another time)

Sikelia: Gela, Kamarina, Himera, Akragas (I'm sure the name you found was badlyt written, not your fault )
allright: Megara Hyblaia, Katane, Leontinoi.
Careful: Panormos and Motye was Phoinikai !

Italia:
Rhegion, Kroton, Taras, Lokroi Epizephyroi(too long for Civ City );

ROMA (!!! I'm Italian, at last )
I've already said: STOP with Rome,Syracuse,Corinth, they're just good for Usa scenario (perhaps new Civil War... )
Then: Alba Longa (Romulus&Remus came from there), Lavinium, Gabii, Tibur.
Castrum Novum seems a bit generic ("new fortress") , I found these city name in some scenarios, but if it existed I really think it wasn't so important.

Etruscan: Vetluna (lat: Vetulonia), Pupluna (lat:Populonia), Tarchna (lat.Tarquinia), Pyrgi, Ilva (grec:Aithalia= Elba Island), other will come later (these are just mnemonic ones).
Goodnight!

[Varwnos]

I changed the city set, atm i am using Stefan Hartel's mycenian cities, but any suggestions are welcome, in the pic you can see the enire western part of the map as well
(also unit suggestions are welcome, can anyone post units by Alex?)

[Gagliaudo]

nea

@Varwnos:
Confirmed cities' names:

THURIOI (careful: founded 444/3 bC by... Palaiologos... ehm by PERIKLES ), TROIZEN, THEBAI, AIGINA, Mantineia, SINOPE, TIRYNS, PEIRAEUS (it's really like this, not latin, but greek), STAGIROS (where was born Aristoteles), Klazomenai; Sena Gallica (but I think was founded late as Roman colony, od.Senigallia. BTW: Castrum Novum - od.Giulianova- was founded as Roman colony in IV-III century bC, too late for your scen).
Other cities:
*asian (no-greek); Thymbra (near Sardis, there was another battle, between Kyros & Kresos, won by the first one, 546bC), Gordios (the old Phrygian king Midas' capital... what a touch ), Alabanda, Pessinus, Daskyleion
*greek asian: Chrysopolis (in front of Byzantion, od:Scutari)
*greek islands: Mytilene - Methymna - Eresos (all 3 in Lesbos), Imbros, Kythera (S of Lakonia), Paros, Andros
*greek sicily: Selinus
*southern italian (native, neither greek or phoinikian or etruscan): Consentia, Manduria, Egesta (=Segesta, in W Sikelia), Eryx (W Sicilia)
***I founded CYME in Eubea (if you're yet interested).
I'll make a map from yours and I'll send you, right?

Question:
At the half of VII century bC there were two war between Greek Poleis (in the same years: ca 670-660 bC): Lelantean war between Chalkis and Eretria for Lelanteion Pedion (a plane between the two cities) and another between Korinthos & Kerkyra (who wanted make itself totally independent from its metropolis). In these wars - which had colonial causes, too - were involved a lot of other Greek poleis, on both sides...
Too many words for just a little question: will you consider these events in your scenario? I think it's difficult.
Better I don't tell about First Sacred War...

See you later, guys!

[Varwnos]

ty

however:
-it is Peiraieys if it has to be something other than Peiraias
-Thebai would be ok, if foreigners knew that b in greek has a v sound, i prefer Thevai
-The homecity (rather a small town) of Aristotle i am pretty sure was called Stagyra, and not Stagyros
-Aigina, ok, anyway all latin ae's are just ai in greek
-Kythera was a city back then? hm, ok! yet anyother island city for the scen then
-Troizen sounds strange, it was probably called Troizena, or Troizene, as you know dorians used "a" instead of "e"

as for events, i am not sure, it depends on what the scen will be about. I think that it wont be event driven though! but you can write any events you like and most probably i will include them

[Arthedain]

Greeks by Alex:

[Varwnos]

Thank you Arthedain i will use those and some of Hobbes ones as well.

proposed governments (change isnt allowed)

-Athena (Democratia=Republic)
-Korinthos (Demokratia=Republic)
-Sparte (Drakontioi nomoi=Drakonian law=Communism)
-Central powers (Oligarchia=Monarchy)
-Independants (Tyrrania=Despotism)
-Acheans (most of them were Acheans) (they might be called Sybaris-Syracusai- i know that no such alliance existed- or colony supremacy side, or Megale Hellas=Magna Grecia) (Oligarchia=Monarchy)
-Miletos (or Ionia) probably Oligarchia, since it would become too powerfull if it was a republic, suggestions are welcome though

Not too sure if Korinthos will be a republic or a monarchy, but it was the richest city of the era, so republic is more probable, also this will make the revolts in the colonies occur more easily.

any suggestions are welcome, Gagliaudo's nation list is an alternative, but this way the individual cities arent the focus, the tribes are, but i am not really decided yet

[Varwnos]

I placed some more cities, and changed the map a bit so as to have:
-Cyprus (3 cities-1 was phoinician i think)
-Naucratis in the upper part of egypt
-Alalia in Corsika-Korsike and Olbia in Sardinia
-3 cities in Cyrenaike, Esperis (Hesperides? Eyesperides?) and two others
-Island cities in the hadriatic, Pharos and Kerkyra (Kerkyra Neotera was my own name for it! Although Kerkyra nea is more fitting)
-a lot more cities in the black see, not in their exact locations since the map doesnt go that north, or west

Generally now every city i know of is in, apart from those in:
france
spain
the azov
palestine

example of what i mean by not placing the cities in the edge in their true locations: the most northern-eastern city on the map is Trapezous (Trebizond) which is in reality a lot more to the east. The most eastern-southern city is Tarsos, which again is in reality a lot more to the east.
some people may not like the distortion of the map that this required, but i think that the extra cities were worth it

[Varwnos]

Here is a pic of the western Pelloponesos, most cities are placed, Amyklai will be placed as well, a bit to the south though, i will try not to make it an unhistorical port (Helos is further to the east, and cannot be seen in this pic)

Megalopolis also stays, unless there is some other city in that region!

[Gagliaudo]

@vawrnos:
Careful: Messene was on mountains/hills, not coastal city, and in the position you put it there was Pylos (coastal), and Methone (or Methona, if you want make it different from omonimous Athenian colony on Macedonian coast, S-E from Therme) where you put Pylos. If you want, you may recall Megalopolis as Messene (it seems well defendable, being on hills) even if Messene was more at west - or Ira (the city where Messenian king resisted to Spartan attack in the 2th Messenian war).
Perhaps 'Sparta' (or Lakedaimon) is better than 'Sparte' (for the same reason you told me about dorian -a).
Stymphalos instead of Stymphalis?
Leuktra wasn't coastal: I'd propose you to put KIRRA there: it was an important phocean city, and its pirate activity in Corinthian Gulf was the origin of the First Sacred War (590 ca bC) with a lot of Greeks against that city (which damaged their commerce), 'sacred' because declared by the Delphike-Pylaike Amphizionia (the most important league in Greece from VII century bC). Leuktra became important later (especially after the Spartan defeat). I think Kirra is more related to your scenario.


I found 'Stagiros' in Herodotos & Thukydides, but 'Stagira' in Aristhoteles (Aristotheles?).
He was born there, I'll accept his version .
I know ionic '-e' became '-a' in doric (see the Lakonioi/Athenaioi name: LeonidAs/PeriklEs), however I found Troizen, even if I agree with you that Troizena/e sounds better; well, it's your choice.
I know Greeks read 'b' like 'v', but I knew that - in classical ancient Greek language - the letter 'v' ('vau' or 'digamma') wasn't used... More, 'Thebai' is more similar to latin (better known) version Thebae and (but it doesn't interest me ) to english version Thebes. But...
... But as I can't teach Aristhoteles the name of the polis where he was born, I won't teach you what you'll do with your language and - first of all - in YOUR scenario!!!
We won't turn bad for one or a pair of letters, right???

Sorry for my tedious infos
I'm really interested to your project, so you'll excuse me
Keep on your work! And have a good job!

[Gagliaudo]

Forgot:

In Kyrenaike: Euesperides (or Euhesperides, but I dislike)
(I think that ypsilon > u in western-alphabet, but rest u when has a epsilon befor: it's a 'dittongo' (in italian...sorry).
I think it's better to read too (ex: Euripides better than Eyripides, or not?). Hey, it's always your choice...

Korinthos became an important tyranny in 7th century bC, but this government wasn't a problem for his commercial affairs.
Naukratis? (I'm awful, I know ) I apologize

Chaire kai kalispera!

[Gagliaudo]

Hey, really nice city graphics!!!
Very... 'greek'! Really!

[Varwnos]

Hi Gagliaudo
your info's are ok

however:

-the city graphics arent final, they were made by Stefan Hartel and are of the Mycenian period, but i can't find any nice later greek city graphic, perhaps you have come across some?

-I thought it was Methone as well (the coastal one) but couldnt find where Messene was, i will rename Messene=Methone and Megalopolis=Messene

-It must be Stymphalis, since one of the athloi (great deeds) of Herakles (Hercules) was killing the "Stymphalides Ornithes" some hawk-like birds that were in the area of Stymphalis, or the countryside and were attacking people (something like that) The city mostly is there so i can have that in the event when it is conquered

-For the same reason i have "thief forest" units in the Asian minor coast, between Klazomenai and Ephesos, so as to have in an event the myth about how the poet Ibykos died (very wonderful story, if you know it, my absolute favourite!)

-I will change Leuktra with Kirra, but was the i a iota? I will try to have Leuktra as well, not so much for the battle there later on, but because i want to have as many cities as possible

-Atm the nations are as i said, but do you think that this will be very linear? since now the plan is that Sparte (sorry, i dislike Sparta! infact i am not sure that they called it that, but i can be wrong here certainly!) conqueres Amyklai, Helos, Tegea, goes to war with Elis etc etc, the "Champions war" against Argos and so on, and Athena forms its Sympoliteia, which in reality was just an empire. Korinthos is tricky to maintain an empire, the Colony Supremacy side is rather odd sadly, and Miletos also has problems as a nation, since there will be an attempt to simulate the persian wars in this scen (nothing grand in this front though). Hm, in reality it seems a very tall order, but since everyone will be in war with the independents at some time it is possible to simulate the colony rebellions by an independent march outside southern Greece. btw what name do you prefer for the independents?
-Alles Poleis (other cities) (probable name)

The central powers are tricky to simulate as well, the rise of Thebes as the most powerfull city-state, the decline of Megara (wasn't it vassalised by Athena?) and the decline of Khalkis and Eretria (Eretria atm is independant)

Hm, perhaps it would be more interesting to have Leagues instead of those groups, your suggestions are welcome, i just didnt really like the idea of having Dorians, Ionians, Aioleans, Acheans etc, too general i think.

[Gagliaudo]

Hope they'll be useful:
Ambrakia may be instead of Anaktorion (even if northern); Prasiai or Thyraia (northern) - but even Hysiai (not coastal, but there w3as a battle between Argos & sparta) were contended between Sparta and Argos; Thessalia was an important region (with its important cities) but didn't partecipate at colonization cause it was rich of fertile lands (Boiotia was fertile, too, and didn't partecipate ); Aigai was the old macedonian capital before Pella; in Lesbos, Methymna is where you put Mytilene.
Hey, StagirA wasn't coastal.(if you want, you an recall it 'Akanthos', and put Stagira a bit northern).
One of your option for civs - to use tribes - may be good. However is difficult to choice which tribes, and establish believable relations between them (and inside them,too), I'm thinking about it.
If I understood, you want describe greek colonization, but even Athenai's and Sparta's expansion.
Perhaps:
1.ATHENAIOI
2.LAKEDAIMONIOI
3.ACHAIOI+ LOKROI (Patrai, Lokris & C.)
4.IONIOI (Miletos, Phokaia & C.)
5.DOROI (Korinthos, Megara, Rhodos & C.)
6.EUBOIOI (Chalkis, Eretria & C.)
7.AUTONOMOI (Eolians:Thessalia,Thebai,Lesbos + otherDorians:Argos,Messenia + Arkadians)
BARBAROI (Makedones-as Greek considered them..., Lydioi, Phoinikes- if you don't mean make them protagonist as Greek's antagonist-, Italikoi, Tyrsenoi, Thrakes, Persai)
Maybe starting with good relations Spartans/Dorians/Acheans, Athenians/Ionians/Euboians (these two blocks will fight one against other, or the single tribes between themselves) , and Indipendents not protagonist.
Or dividing Chalkis and Eretria (but difficult distinguing their own cities) between two Ionians tribes (Euboians was ionians, too, as like as Athenians), to simulate their scrambles for Euboia's fertile plans. Or dividing also Mytilene and Methymna, to simulate internal division of Lesbos in 7th century bC(reported by poet Archilochos,who partecipated actively in them). IMHO there are really a lot of possible combinations. As always, it will be your choice, it will depend from what you're thinking about protagonists, events, scenario's engine and so on.
See you soon!

[Gagliaudo]

@varwnos:
I've upload a map, but... where???
Maybe here...
Try and let me know

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=27297_Greciacolonie.jpg

[Gagliaudo]

... 'Spamming' never dies...

@varwnos:
I think your mithical infos by events (cities captured) are a nice idea, I like history cause i'm curious too.
I don't remember Ibykos' death, but I'm sure you'll provide
Kirra? Kyrra? In latin is Cirra, but I'll control greek version.
Nations are always difficult to set, no doubt about this, and everyone has to work with just 7/8 civs. An appropriate use of barbarians may be useful, I think.
Sparta? Sparte? I propose a compromise... Lakedaimon! Ok?
I've not yet understand exactly the elements on which you want focus the action. You need make choices.
In a scenario between 700 and 500 bC (or 490 ca if you want give a little touch opf Persian war - even if it could be enough to present the Persian invasion of Ionia, who can say it will be succesfull, in the scenario?... ), I think on some development (historical) lines:

*Lakedaimon: easy expansion in Lakonia and Elis (control of Olympia), bit harder in Messenia (with revolts later) and Arkadia, hard against Argos; alliance with Korinthos and Achaioi; foundation of Taras, fight against south-italian tribes (Messapii); crossing the Corinthian gulf, try to take the control of Delphoi (whose Oracle was politically important) facing the expansion of Thessaloi toward south (historical) and maybe estabilish a foothold in Central Greece, to avoid some hostile power take control of northern side of Corinthian gulf (and that's all historical!).
*Athenai: control of Attike (Eleusis), border conflics with Boiotia(try to take control of Plataia, Oropos and Delios), Megara (now I'll make it independent) and Aigina (as Megara), expansion toward islands (first Salamis - independ., then all the Kykladai) to build a commercial wealth and to grant a wheat-trade route across Ellesponton (eventually foothold in thracian coast - fighting with hostile Thrakes), to permit fooding the growing metropolis; later (very later), foundation of colonies on Macedonian coast, contrast Persian invasion.
*Korinthos: foundation of Syrakosiai (I think you shouldn't divide them) and other colonies (Potidaia), fighting against Sikeloi (in Sicilia, later against Phoinikes) and other Greek (not dorian-Achaian) colonies; Kerkyra is a problem: colony giving lot of troubles and revolts or independent city to scramble with?; found colonies on Epiros' coast; build a huge commercial empire; keep peace with Spartans (better alliance); face Athenai's attempts toward Megara (strategical place).
*Chalkis: foundation of a lot of colonies, in Asia, Chalkidike peninsula, Italia, defending them from enemies (natives and greeks) and let them growing; fight against Eretria (if you divide the two Euboian cities, making Eretria independent or ionian); commercial expansion.
*Achaioi: lot of colonies in Italia, fight with natives Italikoi, then with Tyrsenoi (barbarian) and with not-achean/dorian colonies; peace or alliance with Korinthos and Lakedaimon. Problem: how show intestine conflict between achaian colonies (Sybaris+Kroton vs Siris, then Sybaris vs Kroton)? perhaps giving any colony to another greek colonial civ, or starting earlier the conflicts with other greek colonies.
*Ionioi: lot of cities in Asia Minor, colonies in Pontos Euxinos, later in Italia, Kyrnos (fighting with Tyrsenoi& Phoinikes for Alalia) and in coastal France; face Lydian expansion toward asian coast, and finally the Persian invasion.
*Autonomoi: what put in this mix? I think mostly Eolians: Thessalia, Boiotia (whose rise is really too late for your scen), Lesbos(?), Phokis, Lokris, Aigina, maybe Akarnania (or give it to Ionians, or Athenaioi?) and Aitholia (alternative: make Aitholia barbarian, not so strange, at those time: Greeks considered barbaroi or semi-barbaroi Makedones and Epyrotai, quite the same for Aitholoi...). Problem: Thessaloi fought for a long time with Phokis-Lokris and Boiotia, mostly for the control of Delphoi (which gave the control of Amphizyonia); perhaps it's possible put Phokis with Chalkis and Lokris with Achaioi (so: Chalkis+Phokis fight against indep.Thessaloi+Eritraioi); alternative: delete (or rename) 'city' of Lokris in Sterea Ellas and give Lokroi Epizephyroi to Achaioi (Achean control on both sides of Corinthian gulf is too unrealistic and could make Acheans too strong in metropolitan Ellas). Problem2: what about Megara? It had important colonies (like Byzantion!): let it independent (with its colonies) or give it to Korinthos (for example) or to Athenai? Every solution may be useful to permit new interesting (and historical or not so far from reality) situations, at least colonial wars...
*Barbaroi: well, just said: Phoinikes(eastern & westrn), Lydioi (late Persai), Thrakes, Epirotai, Makedones, Italikoi, Sikeloi, (maybe Aitholians). Large use of events-units.

So:
1.LAKEDAIMON (+Taras)
2.ATHENAI
3.KORINTHOS (orOROI) (+Syrakusai,Potidaia,Kerkyra, etc.)
4.CHALKIS (+Phokis, etc.)
5.IONIOI (Miletos+Phokaia+Ephesos+Massalia etc.)
6.ACHAIOI (+Lokroi, etc.)
7.AUTONOMOI (independents)
-.BARBAROI

Alternative (only tribe-based):
DOROI, IONIOI, ACHAIOI, AIOLOI, AUTONOMOI, PHOINIKOI, ASIANS. Really, I'm think it's too generic, simplicistic, and - most important - too UNhistorical. Tribal distinction were important, but there were other elements, politically and historically more determinant, that can make richer the scenario, too.

And that's all folks! (for now... )