Ozzy's Classical Eurodip!

[Ljube]

Originally posted by deity


Please don't. You add so much to the game ozzy.

You can take Greeks when I clear you out deity.
Oooops sorry, wrong thread. We are alllies here.

[deity]

I think posting is a great thing but your role in-game has been the central focus of the game!

[deity]

Originally posted by ljcvetko


You can take Greeks when I clear you out deity.
Oooops sorry, wrong thread. We are alllies here.

Indeed! And don't forget it!

[Zylka]

please save this into the game folder. some real diplomacy regarding the Gypo-Bab war in the story thread tommorrow

[Frank Johnson]

I suggest seriously, to all players, to consider the nerfing of howitzers.

Most of us have experienced lots of warfare from other periods, since that is what is encountered most, and for the most part, the game is fairly balanced. Howitzers, even without the wall flag, is over twice as powerful as the last military unit armor and costs less to produce.

While modern infantry stand a chance against howies, they still require signifigant terrian bonuses to win.

So I'd like to deepen the discussion on how best the players feel howitzers should be limited in strength, since as they stand there is still no method of defense against them, and they stand out far in away from any other technlogical advancement advantage in the entire game.

I'd like to see howies reduced to 2HP...and keep their increased cost.

[Zylka]

well

We've already slightly increased their cost, introduced a 75% cost modern infantry with defense beyond what's been seen before.. I personally think with hp mirroring the 3 of armor and mech inf it's realistic, and keeps the howie (barely) part of the game. What's been done so far seems a half way test - lowering hp would IMO disable worth of the unit entirely, and leave war a considerable nothing

But let's hear what everyone else thinks of Frank's proposal. I also have a modern unit list - any unit with changes has ** and comes with the the change bolded

*Armor*
10/5
3 HP 2FP (+)
3 moves
80 shields

*Mobile 155mm* (new Howitzer)
12/2
3 HP 2FP
2 moves
80 shields (+)
Ignores city walls

Modern infantry
6/6
3 HP 1 FP
1 move
60 shields
+50% against units with move factor of 2

*Mech infantry*
7/7 (++)
3 HP 1 FP
3 moves
60 shields

MLRS 12/2 (comes with Robotics, as well)
3 HP 2FP
1 move
120 shields
Ignores city walls

[...]

-NO Diplo guiding
-NO Partisan guiding
-NO Paratrooper guiding
-NO bribing of Partisan units (realistic, and will further stem 1 turn sweeps)

[Zylka]

A standard MLRS in action, btw :-D
They're incredibly costly to use, and not something that can attack as constantly as a 155mm gun. Just an "in case" weapon for your enemy arrogantly fortifying a hillside fortress with only one modern inf

[Frank Johnson]

Zylka, I love your enthusism man, but I don't know if you fully understand the modifcations you've made to the units.

By giving armor 2 firepower, you've essientally brought in a 3 move howitzer, which in combnination with the standard diplo/spy wall assault, is about 85% as effective....and instead of fighting infantry and modern infantry, they will be fighting against riflemen.

I will do some tests to demonstrate the effects of the new units.

[Dylan Baker]

Guys, I am about 90% sure I will need a sub tomorrow night. If I can find somebody to cover my office on Saturday, then I am heading out of town.

[Zylka]

Ok Frank, I didn't think of the specific tech stages - just how unrealistically worthless armor are in the final. What's tech for modern inf, again? Tanks may indeed have to sit put

and Dylan.. it'd do us a world of good if you could arrrange a sub. maybe Jack can take the night off getting hammered at the pub and masturbating next to an empty pizza box?

[Frank Johnson]

Late Game Combat

Note that these units are already modified to be specially good against howies, it makes their total ownage more pathetic.


Here's a possible situation. Our brave defenders are fortified on open terrian, and with howies wall ignoring abilities, this is the typical defense setup for most civs.




All of our defenders have been destroyed. Most of the howies still have a move left and would be moving along to find more units to kill.




Luckily, your civ has alot of rivers. Or maybe you're the paranoid type and have modded all your city terrains to forests. Either way, these troopers have +50% more defense than the last set.





A better performance indeed, but alas, all the defenders were destroyed without taking a single howie with them, with a barracks town those howies will be back in action in 2 turns.




Now we've got them! Or do we? You've modded all your city terrains to hills with your engineers. Or, your troops are enjoying a fortress position. These troops have +100% defense.




Even with all of that, only a single defender got out alive, I mean if you call that alive.



This time, the troops were in the same spot, but with fortresses as well. This gave them +200% defense. They seemed to be even less lucky, note that this is an impossible city defense situation.


Ok, our boys have had it, and have built themselves some fortresses in the mountains. This gives them +300% defense. This ought to teach'em.



Wow, that was close. Too close if you ask me. This is the game's 2nd most powerful defensive position possilbe (the only other thing that can be done is to run a river over it too.) And these troops have been almost smashed. No civ can ever be fortified to this level either. The best a city can do is mod itself to hills and hope for the best......

[Zylka]

That's insane, even for cost ratio.. absolutely stunning

The pike flag is DEFINITELY active for the infantry?

[Zylka]

Alright, I'm convinced that can't be right - use fortifed modern inf on fortressed hill, for example

Modern Inf: 9 real defense vs Mobile 155's static 12 attack
%50 fortify bonus (by BASE defense of 6) is added = 9+3
%100 terrain bonus (by BASE defense of 6) is added = 12+6
%100 fortress bonus (") is added = 18+6

24 defense

Let me know what introduced variable might cancel out another; but this is with the benefit of the doubt regarding cumulative possibilities

So - with every defensive combat ON A FOTRESSED HILL: modern infantry should score 2:1 "hits" against howies. Yet the inf only deals 1hp damage in each hit, needing 3 hit wins per combat to kill the howitzer. The howitzer needs only 1.5 wins during like situation, yet in fresh to fresh unit example: a full 2 are needed.

Modern inf has %66 chance of each hit - 3 hits needed for kill
Mobile 155mm has %33 chance of each hit - 2 hits needed for kill

(I have no clue how exactly hp damages might be dealt divided on tenths since real calibrated HP for a 3 hp unit is 30, 2hp being 20, etc.)

So dismissing what might be the all telling yet unknown x10 calibration variable - your average instance of initiated combat between the two (under outlined circumstance) should be

1 - Modern inf scores first hit
2 - Modern inf scores second hit
2 - Howitzer scores third hit
3 - Modern inf scores fourth hit
4 - Howitzer destroyed; inf left with (=/-) 10/30 hp
*Over time - average leftover for modern inf should be 7/30hp

In such an average example - a total 35 hp should be left amongst 5 inf, for ALL howitzers being destroyed. This obviously fluctuates in leftover proportions

So.. what have I done wrong in calculation, or what's going on with the displayed tests? First - were they against the AI? What difficulting setting was it? Who attacked, the AI or you? Was there a suprise attack bonus for any of the first howitzer attacks - or was war already declared? Was the test done once in each instance, or repeated with average outcome "decided" in example? Is there a small yet notable attacker's hit bonus for every unit used - which I seem to "feel" in every game?

I think first off this should be retested with 2 players via mp

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Zylka
That's insane, even for cost ratio.. absolutely stunning

The pike flag is DEFINITELY active for the infantry?

Ask in the Creation Forum for specialist's advice, but I'm nearly sure it only works with 1 HP 2 moves units!

So it wouldn't work against Howitzers...

[Frank Johnson]

fortified Modern Infantry vs howie

12 def vs 12 att
(with pike flag bonus +3)

In this scenario, the howies lose only 7-8Hp and stay green.

forified modern infantry on river

15 vs 12....

5:4 ratio. Howies need 15 wins to kill, so they suffer 19dmg, so are always yellow or near red.

forified modern infantry on hill

18 vs 12
3:2 ratio. Howies need 15 wins to kill, so they suffer about 23 damage. These howies on average are in the red.

fortified modern infantry on hill fort
24 v 12
2:1 ratio. This is the first even battle. The odds should be exactly 50/50

fortified modern infantry on mountain fort
30 v 12
5:2 ratio. Howies need 15 hits to win, but suffer 38 before they do so. The infantry will still take serious damage.



They were done against the AI in an already declared war. I've done tests in the past that confirmed the flag worked, but it may have been luck since the tests were only done on a small scale of 10 units.