RAH rules VI: No Spamming!

[deity]

Never use hut finder.

I hate it.

I hate the concept it represents.

It's bad enough being tempted by black clicking!

I try to forget about the hut patterns.

I love exploration and genuine surprise.

[Ming]

It's really no different from odeo years... just more information to use... Do you use that knowledge?

And while you might try to "forget" the hut or special pattern, I think that's just plain silly. It's just information that you learn from playing. Any game I play, I disect and learn any advantage I can. The hut/special pattern was one of the earliest things I learned about the game... why should I not use that information????? I don't see how you can hate the concept it represents... it's simple knowledge. Yeah, hut finder makes it easier and faster, but the pattern is already there... I don't see how it's any different than knowing the probablity of attacks... or knowing that you can open a hut in a city range and not get barbs... or open huts before you get your first city and not get barbs... or that trade routes to different continents or civs pay better... or how determine to the direct path between cities to maximize trade routes... or how to shift demand for a city... it's all stuff you learn. This is no different. I had mapped out all the patterns... long before hut finder was available... it's just information that makes you smarter.

I love exploration and genuine surprise as well... and hut finder doesn't change that... you have no clue what the land will be... whether it ends or not... if there is really going to be a special... what kind... will the hut be there.. are there barbs in the black... is anybody else there... it's no different than knowing the pattern... it's still a genuine surprise...

But... if you hate the concept of understanding the game you are playing, or don't want to learn more about how the game works... fine by me... and probably fine by anybody you are going to play.

And again, do you use odeo years

[Deity Dude]

Mings, knowledge of Oedo years is different and so are the other examples you give. Because they ARE part of the game. I would, for example, be against a program that autmatically revolted for you at the proper time (and sometimes I forget to revolt even though I know when to). Or a program that highlighted the best trade route between cities. Or a program that maixmized payouts. I think any add-on program is outside the game and (like steroids in sports) is an artificial performance enhancer. Even if the knowledge is already there, you still should have to use it correctly on your own not have a program do it for you.

[deity]

Like I said, in regards to the rule being discused here I vote against hut finder. I simply don't like it. The map is sacred!

In another discusion we can discuss other rules. Most seem to agree on the oedo years.
Many don't use or agree weith hut finder...

[Ming]

Why is odeo years any differet? You just memorized something... and the same holds true for knowing the huts and special pattern. Hutfinder beats using my old charts... I don't see how hutfinder is different than the having the knowledge... it just makes it easier and faster... but doesn't change the fact that the knowledge is already there for anybody that wants it.

If you don't want to know or use the information... fine... but it sure as hell isn't cheating... again, the pattern was there and mapped LONG before hut finder.

[Deity Dude]

One more example then I am done for the night. How would u feel about a program that black clicked the entire map for you and then basically outlined the entire map for you.

Now one could argue that the black clicking knowledge is out there for anyone who wants to use it and such a program would only speed up the game, but I would certainly rather make people black click on their own if they choose to do that.

Or how about a program that autmatically "traingulated" enemy cities for you.

[deity]

I have to agree with DD on this one.

A rules thread is where the criteria for what constitutes a cheat is discused.

We'll all make different judgements and we won't all agree on the final consensus of all rules.

I would say that the hut finder falls outside the allowable criteria and only when agreed be deemed a cheat (not retrospective).

Let's ban it in Rah Rules from now on

[Ming]

If you want to ignore a basic element of the game... fine by me.

The Nights I'm told not to use it, I don't, and it doesn't effect much except to slow me down a bit... but the knowledge is still there.

I would argue that your examples aren't the the same. learning the pattern is far different than clicking...

But feel free to keep thinking knowledge is cheating

[Ming]

And I can understand if somebody isn't willing to learn the pattern why they might think it's unfair for somebody to use knowledge they have taken the time to learn

[deity]

Knowledge isn't cheating but automated aids is.

[Deity Dude]

Ming - no one has a problem with using the pattern. What eople have a problem with is using an outside aid to exploit the pattern.

[Ming]

So it's ok if I use my graphs and memory, but not hut finder...

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHA!

[-Jrabbit]

Speaking as a Mac user, HutFinder is clearly an unfair advantage for the other players -- who make it worse by giving me grief for slow play as i try to remember where I am in the pattern.

Of course, they can make a beeline to the specials and early huts. Then insult me even more by chortling about their fast start.

I'm OK with it, I still have fun. I don't even ask them not to use it -- how could I enforce it? But it's not a level playing field, and it's silly to suggest that it is.

I know there's no sympathy for mac users, but the fact that there NO POSSIBILITY of using Hutfinder -- because it doesn't exist for us -- is significant. But the attitude I sense is "you have an inferior operating system, you deserve what you get."

It's a little insulting.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
Ming - no one has a problem with using the pattern. What eople have a problem with is using an outside aid to exploit the pattern.

Exploit... huh? Hut finder just makes it faster for me... and for anybody else that knows/understands the patterns. And slow play is one of the biggest problems with the game. The knowledge is already there... the "outside aide" is no different than a brain or personal graphs... If you don't have a clue, and never bothered to learn the patterns, then I can see why it might seem like magic or a cheat to you...

Again... If people agree upfront that it can't be used, I don't really need it. It just adds a little more time to my turns... and I feel sorry for the people that haven't played the game as much as some of us have and are then at a real disadvantage

[Ming]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Speaking as a Mac user, HutFinder is clearly an unfair advantage for the other players

Hmmm... aren't there programs out there that would allow you to run non mac programs

-- who make it worse by giving me grief for slow play as i try to remember where I am in the pattern.

Your slow play is more due to your total lack of experience compared to people you are playing with. It's not "automatic" to you yet... you will only get better... and as you know... we will always make comments about slow play

Of course, they can make a beeline to the specials and early huts. Then insult me even more by chortling about their fast start.

Hut finder isn't needed for that to happen for anybody that knows the patterns... yes, hutfinder is faster... and that's why I like it... again... slow play is the biggest problem. If you aren't going to use hutfinder... fine... but if you then aren't going to take the time to learn the patterns, don't whine about people that have that knowledge.

I'm OK with it, I still have fun. I don't even ask them not to use it -- how could I enforce it? But it's not a level playing field, and it's silly to suggest that it is.

People can use a second computer... impossible to enforce... but that doesn't mean that we do
However, that is one of the reasons why it's silly to try to legislate it out.

And I would argue with you about level playing field... somebody like you doesn't really have a clue about the total patterns... hut finder actually levels the field for you... and allows you to take advantage of knowledge you haven't been able to learn yet

I know there's no sympathy for mac users, but the fact that there NO POSSIBILITY of using Hutfinder -- because it doesn't exist for us -- is significant.

Again... there is software out there that would allow you to use non mac software

But the attitude I sense is "you have an inferior operating system, you deserve what you get."

Inferior... no... limiting sometimes... yes.

It's a little insulting.

If you wish to feel and think that... that's your opinion and may or may not be reality