RAH rules VI: No Spamming!

[Deity Dude]

Ming, you are either not reading the entire arguement against hut finder or are choosing not to acknowledge it.

I understand the special and hut patterns. I'm sure most players in your games understand them. It's not a question of understanding the patterns or even using your knowledge of the patterns. We all do that. It's a question of using a computer generated add-on to the game to assist you in your knowledge of the patterns.

Like revolt years, we all understand them and use them. But we don't have a computer add-on program to revolt for us. Sometimes due to human error we forget to revolt.

We all know about black clicking. But we don't have a computer add-on program that black clicks the entire map and color codes different areas.

I could probably come up with another dozen possible programs that could be developed that would "do the job" for the player. I would be against all of them, even though it could be argued that they speed up the game and do things that players already do on graph paper or mentally.

I totally agree that hut finder isn't illegal per se because anything the players agree on or at least are informed of ahead of time, no matter what it is, is simply a rule of the game.

I think your constant point that people who are against the use of the hut-finder program are somehow not knowledgable players is flat out wrong and distracting from the real issue.

The real issues are:

a) do we want computer add-on programs that automate normal human decision making processes.

b) is fair/even game play promoted amongst players knowing that some players will choose not to use the program and other players can not use the program due to the operating system they use.

Having said all of that, I can live with you guys using it. I just look at it as similiar to a sports team playing on the road. Its just something I have to overcome. But I definitely think it would be better if it were not used.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
I understand the special and hut patterns. I'm sure most players in your games understand them. It's not a question of understanding the patterns or even using your knowledge of the patterns. We all do that. It's a question of using a computer generated add-on to the game to assist you in your knowledge of the patterns.

No... I do understand... I just disagree with how you are positioning it. I see it as something that speeds up the game, and gives knowledge to those that would otherwise be at a disadvantage to those that are better versed in the game. I don't NEED hut finder... I know the patterns...

Your arguments against other such devices aren't the same... there isn't a program to outline continents... or a program to find cities... these are not learned things, but things determinded by "clicking"... Hut finder just speeds up the recognition of an easy to learn pattern... just like odeo years... a pattern.

So we can agree to disagree... I can use my charts, memory, or hut finder... no matter which I use, the results are the same... So I would prefer to opt to something that others without my knowledge can use as well, and something that speeds up the game.

[Caesar Jon]

I guess we will just have to disagree.

[-Jrabbit]

For the record, I do have a pretty good understanding of the patterns. I don't know them in the depth that you long-timers do, but well enough. The biggest drawback for me is the easy recall of information.

The Mac can be set up to run PC pgms, i just choose not to.

and while Hutfinder levels the field for poor nooby me when i'm on a pc, it makes it all the less so when i'm on my Mac

[deity]

It seems to me that the majority don't like hutfinder...

[deity]

And JR, Macs rule! *to quote finbar*

I use both but like WinXPSP2 as much as Panther MasOS 10.3. It's reached a point where both are excellent each with certain advantages... like Panther doesn't run the hutfinder virus

[Ming]

Originally posted by deity
It seems to me that the majority don't like hutfinder...

While the term "majority" for purposes of this limited discussion is technically correct... the sample size isn't large enough for projecting anything

[Ming]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
The Mac can be set up to run PC pgms, i just choose not to.

I know there's no sympathy for mac users, but the fact that there NO POSSIBILITY of using Hutfinder -- because it doesn't exist for us --

Since you "choose" not to... your early statement is kind of funny

[Deity Dude]

Ming:

Who likes hut finder other than you and RAH. Note I didn't say who uses it, because I am sure some people use it just because they dont want to be at a disadvantage.

Maybe we should do a poll.

[Ming]

Many of the old crowd used it and like it for the speed it added to the games... I will admit that many of them don't play much anymore. We did do a poll a long time ago when it first became available... like we did for most of rah rules... and it won by a wide margin.

And when the majority of the people playing in a game don't want it used, I have had no problem not doing so...

I can understand the different points of view, but it doesn't change my opinion on this subject... it might be time to pull out all my old charts again

[-Jrabbit]

The only thing that needs to be polled are the ppl playing each game.
No big deal.

[deity]

Originally posted by Ming




While the term "majority" for purposes of this limited discussion is technically correct... the sample size isn't large enough for projecting anything

Well, of the folks currently playing that I know of:

4 here have voted against hutfinder

1 in favour; plus another who has not yet posted.

So that's 4 against 2. Not a bad litmus test.

Now, all we need is the opinion of Makeo, Trev, Lungchild, Dylan, Ljube, Zylka, finbar, Horse and a few others to see the results.

[Caesar Jon]

I agree that hut finder should be banned. If people like Ming are "gods" at civ then programs like hut finder are not needed.

[RGBVideo]

I don't use (and don't want to use) hutfinder, don't really understand the patterns in huts yet, but have nothing against those who use it. If you can find out about the location of the huts anyway it basically only saves some time for all the players.

The only thing I'm really against in these rules is the fact that caravans aren't banned. You're forced to use them in order not to lose miserably to others (half of your trade comes from them) and using and co-ordinating them properly takes horrible amounts of time.

[rah]

I like it because it saves time and evens the start of the game a bit for those that don't know that pattern.

As ming says, most of this is known to memory or through charts for the die hards. BUT, even with the charts it takes a more than one hut to determine the pattern and this is the main strength of hut finder. I will be doing research to update my charts to do the same thing now that I know how it's done and there will be games where I will not be allowed to use hutfinder.

The relationship of the huts to specials is mostly known and doesn't require hut finder, except again, hut finder is more acurate in identifying the 3 special vs 4 special combos.

I will use it whenever allowed.

But having said that, if most of the players request that it not be used in a specific game, I will abide by their request. All our rules have been discussed and voted on which is the basis for RAH rules. I still believe in the concept and respect the community.

However the discussions so far has not been sufficient for me to request that RAH rules be changed to exclude it. For now (but could change in the future) the default will remain that it be allowed. But like any specific rule, anyone can recommend a game be rah rules with no hutfinder. I prefer it this way, because unless specified that it not be used, I intend to use it and I don't want to be considered a cheat. My reputation is that I always abide by the rules set. I will continue to. So if you don't want be to use, please make a point to discuss it prior to the game.

Thanks for all the healthy discussion. This is the first item that has been voted in that has a chance to be later voted out. I predict that I would continue to vote it's use acceptable.