Civ4BtS : KRAKATOA - #42 Pitboss APT

[CHINCHIN]

Hecho!

https://apolyton.net/forum/civilization-series/civilization-en-espa-ntilde-ol/9464847-viabilidad-campeonato-apt

[Vicente_Pisha]

Speaking of that, you did not said if I would had won those 5 leva I bet that Vicente gave you the idea to give me your word and then trick me with later written agreement. Vicente quoted FVL "its not easy to beat 2metra." Nope, I beated you and then decided to spare you. You guys just tricked me.

I really don't know why you think this about me. I always try to behave honestly, both in CIV and in real life. I make an effort to be a good person. It makes me very sad to know that I fail at that too. I don't know what I have done for you to have that image of me. I don't remember who I deceived so that you would think that if there was a deception it must have been my idea. I probably suffer from some kind of cognitive dissonance and my mind forgets all the bad things I must have done in life in general and in this championship in particular.

De verdad que no sé por qué piensas esto de mí. Siempre intento comportarme de forma honesta, tanto en CIV como en la vida real. Hago un esfuerzo por ser una buena persona. Me entristece mucho saber que también fracaso en eso. No sé qué he hecho para que tengáis esa imagen de mí. No recuerdo a quién he engañado para que penséis que si ha habido un engaño tiene que haber sido mi idea. Probablemente sufro de algún tipo de disonancia cognitiva y mi mente olvida todas las maldades que tengo que haber hecho en la vida en general y en este campeonato en particular.

[2metraninja]

Sorry man, I dont know you in real life, I only know you from interactions we had in the games we played. It was only one game where we had interactions actually. In this game you first switched sides from our alliance and joined our enemy, then you signed deal you will switch again sides this time attacking the one who you switched sides to earler and in the end you voted and elected AP winner the same guy you signed you will fight. For my standarts this is unusual high level of flexibility in a single game.

Oh, also I shared some information with you and then asked you not to tell it to others, you promise not to tell it and then I hear this thing as rumor from others.

[Estilpón]

Es posible que sea mi falta de pericia en el idioma inglés (no sé muy bien que habrá entendido o qué habré expresado mal). Solo traté de puntualizar algunos aspectos, pero en general, salvo algunos puntos en los que no voy a entrar, las valoraciones de 2metraninja están bien.
Solo se le olvida que a veces falla y no tiene porqué cumplirse. Sí, quizás yo no sea el jugador indicado para hacer que sus previsiones se incumplan, pero eso puede ocurrir. Como en esta partida.

Hablas de Mack arriba y abajo, ni idea, apenas interaccioné con alguien llamado Mack, creo que en esa partida me eliminaron Vicente y otro vecino bastante pronto.

Está claro que no sabes porqué Corea votó como votó. Yo sí lo sé: quería acabar y le daba igual quien ganara. Y eso te llevó a perder, por exceso de confianza en tí mismo ¿ya ves la pauta?.

Lo que me parece absolutamente fuera de lugar son los insultos y las insinuaciones sobre la moral ni sobre mí ni sobre Vicente. Eso no es aceptable

whole reason at all to offer you that deal was because I had high opinion on you and I trusted you. I would had never offered such deal to someone I suspect can lie to me.

And you choose to be ungrateful and liar.

etc...

CÓMO TÚ DICES:

it was specific "I spare your life, you vote me AP winner and I let you become second".

Y eso se cumplió por mi parte.
Avísame dónde está mentira y si no, discúlpate públicamente.


PS. Los rumores no vienen de Vicente, los sabía ANTES de esta partida. Ahora sé que puedo comentarlo con él. Curioso el afán de ocultarlo si todo era correcto.

[astrologix]

Hola, independientemente de vuestro problema creo que es importante puntualizar que el espíritu del reglamento APT es que, una vez vencido el plazo estipulado de 40 turnos para un NAP, no hay obligación ninguna de mantener la palabra dada. El concepto "traición" no existe en el reglamento. Lo podeis constatar leyendo los capítulos NAP y alianzas.

A mí me ha ocurrido varias veces que me engañaran, que me atacaran inmediatamente después de un NAP, o que un jugador que me habia mostrado buenas intenciones y en el que yo había confiado (sin firmar un NAP) me atacara de repente sin que yo me lo esperara. Lo que es perfectamente legítimo al respetar el espíritu del reglamento.

Aparte de esto, os recuerdo que yo soy el creador del campeonato APT (Astrologix Pitboss Tournaments). El reglamento fué redactado, por mí, pensando en la vida real. En esta no se dan este tipo de situaciones : nunca se han visto alianzas eternas entre imperios o paises. Por lo tanto las traiciones o cambio de alianzas son fenómenos que han ocurrido frecuentemente en la historia.

Por lo tanto, el que juega fuera de este espíritu no ha entendido el reglamento y estrictamente hablando no debería jugar estas partidas.

En últimas partidas he constatado la tendencia a hacer alianzas para toda la partida. No he dicho nada por no crear mal rollo, viendo que el campeonato llega a su fin, por no perder buenos jugadores. Pero estríctamente hablando tendríamos que haber anulado alguna de estas, o echar a jugadores por no respetar el reglamento.

*****

Hello, regardless of your problem, I think it is important to point out that the spirit of the APT regulation is that, once the stipulated period of 40 turns for a NAP has expired, there is no obligation to keep the word given. The concept "treason" does not exist in the regulations. You can see this by reading the NAP and alliances chapters.

It has happened to me several times that they deceived me, that they attacked me immediately after a NAP, or that a player who had shown me good intentions and in whom I had trusted (without signing a NAP) suddenly attacked me without me I would expect it. Which is perfectly legitimate when respecting the spirit of the regulations.

Apart from this, I remind you that I am the creator of the APT (Astrologix Pitboss Tournaments) championship. The regulations were written, by me, thinking about real life. This type of situation does not occur here: eternal alliances between empires or countries have never been seen. Therefore, betrayals or changes in alliances are phenomena that have occurred frequently in history.

Therefore, anyone who plays outside of this spirit has not understood the rules and strictly speaking should not play these games.

In recent games I have noticed the tendency to make alliances for the entire game. I haven't said anything so as not to create bad vibes, seeing that the championship is coming to an end, so as not to lose good players. But strictly speaking we should have canceled some of these, or fired players for not respecting the regulations.

[HBHR]

Wow, extrañaba este tipo de crónicas en las partidas. Aplausos a GV, 2mn, Estilpón y Chinchín por ellas

Como ya se ha dicho yo era Wang. Inicié en una isla grande aislado totalmente del resto de civilizaciones. Tan grande como era, la isla no tenía ningún recurso de lujo (o quizás uno pero en un extremo lejano), el cobre estaba lejos (tercera o cuarta ciudad) y los caballos al otro extremo de la isla, así que al inicio de la partida sufrí mucho para sobrevivir a los ataques bárbaros, lo que aunado a no poder intercambiar tecnologías ni recursos ni rutas comerciales inexorablemente me condenó al fondo de la tabla. Una vez conseguí cobre logré estabilizar mis defensas y entonces me concentré en desarrollar mis ciudades con muchos cottages para que cuando alguna otra civilización me encontrara, las viera apetecibles y acabara de una vez por todas con mis penurias
Oh sorpresa cuando me contactaron, no solo no me atacaron, sino que me trataron con cortesía. Creo que ayudó que fue casi al mismo tiempo que todos me contactaron. No pude evitar pensar en una semejanza con la historia de la primera Fundación de Isaac Asimov (la del libro, no la serie), donde sobrevivió al inicio gracias a mantener el equilibrio entre los planetas vecinos. Así que me dedique a mantener buenas relaciones con todos, comprando techs a quien me vendiera, abriendo fronteras etc. A veces apoyaba un poco más a Amini, a veces apoyaba a Sury, y a veces hacía lo que Mocte y Eli me pedían. No tenía mucho tiempo para jugar y la verdad quería que esta partida se acabara rápido para poder dedicar el poco tiempo disponible a la otra en la que participaba y en la que sí veía buenas perspectivas, pero no iba a comenzar una guerra contra ninguno. Mis ciudades tenían muchos pueblos y villas, pero pocos panes y casi cero martillos así que estaba a la merced de quien quisiera atacarme.
Finalmente pude cambiar a Sufragio Universal (creo recordar que gracias a una edad de oro) y además fundé la Sid Sushi, así que comencé a acelerar fábricas y plantas de carbón en todas mis ciudades con lo que súbitamente vi que podía incrementar mi producción y comenzar a sacar unidades.
Pero como decimos por acá "cuando finalmente me aprendí las respuestas del examen, el profesor cambió las preguntas", de repente Sury y Amini firmaron la paz y entendí que ahora aumentaban las posibilidades de que alguno de los dos me atacara. Me di cuenta de los movimientos de Amini y sospeché que venía por mí así que voté en el AP por él para contentarlo un poco y tratar de ganar algunos turnos más sacando flota y unidades ahora que sí tenía ciudades productivas.
El resto ya se ha comentado, el siguiente turno Amini me declaró la guerra y posicionó su gigantesca flota para atacar a varias de mis ciudades principales (el 90% de ellas estaban en costa). Pero Amini cometió un par de errores graves a mi entender: Se le olvidó o no sabía que conmigo se consigue más a las buenas que a las malas, y me amenazó con destruirme, sin saber que eso era lo que estaba deseando hace centurias, y además con las condiciones que puso sin proponérselo me dijo cual era exactamente su plan para ganar la partida. Y bueno, yo quería que esta se acabara, pero con toda seguridad buscaría la forma de hacerle el mayor daño posible a quien me atacara, y por supuesto trataría de darme el gustico de ponerle una zancadilla en el cumplimiento de sus objetivos. Para ello ya había posicionado espías en la mayoría de mis ciudades (2mn se equivoca al decir que luego de su ataque envié espías a las ciudades conquistadas. Ya estaban allí hace muchos turnos). Sacrifiqué en todas mis ciudades menos una (la que estaba en el centro de la isla y estaba fuera del alcance de su flota) hasta dejarlas con uno o dos de población, le cambié de principios y de religión, y además sin saberlo le destruí un transporte gran general al cual le había cambiado el nombre para mantenerlo camuflado por lo que le escribí con ironía sobre ello (no me di cuenta de que se le había pasado el turno, aunque me pareció ver que sí hizo movimiento de tropas en ese mismo turno, pero quizás sí se le pasó terminar sus movimientos de ese turno). Mi plan era que apenas pudiera cambiar de turno nuevamente, iba a regresar mi civ a la prehistoria cambiando a principios como Barbarie y otros, pero al mismo tiempo utilizar mis espías posicionados en mis ex-ciudades para hacer lo mismo con Aminí. Así mi venganza se habría consumado. Tristemente, Amini me destruyó justo un turno antes. PD: qué suerte para mi agresor que era una civ espiritual... sino

Me sorprendió mucho la actitud distante de Eli, pero ahora entiendo que Chinchin estaba desconectado de esta partida. Sobre Mocte al principio confié en él, pero luego me ofreció fundar sucursales de la Mining en mis ciudades, lo que acepté con gusto, pero al turno siguiente me pide en intercambio el único recurso de hierro que yo tenía o pensó que yo era estúpido o simplemente se estaba burlando de mí. Luego de eso mantuve mis relaciones con el con diplomacia, pero siempre con desconfianza (al final de la partida le alcancé a regalar uno o dos GG que me nacieron y uno o dos GP pero sólo porque era a quien podía enviarlos sin correr el riesgo de que Amini hundiera los transportes).
Con Sury siempre tuve relaciones cordiales y creo que fue siempre sincero en nuestras interacciones. Le mantuve fronteras cerradas por mucho tiempo ante la insistencia de Mocte, pero creo que alcancé a ayudarlo con dinero y alguna que otra información logística. A Amini en algún momento también le regalé una tecnología moderna (qué desagradecida salió esa %&#$%$ ).
Con Carlomagno la interacción fue poca o nula en realidad.

Felicitaciones a Estilpón por su victoria, y a 2mn y FLV por el podio (aunque entiendo el desazón de ambos por no ganarla, pero así es toda competencia, sólo uno de los participantes es el ganador).

Larga vida al campeonato APT. Muchas gracias Astro por todos estos años de dedicación y esfuerzo (y mencionar la inversión monetaria ).

Espero todos nos volvamos a encontrar en alguna que otra partida. Ha sido un verdadero honor jugar con ustedes.

[Estilpón]

Gracias HBHR

No tenía mucho tiempo para jugar y la verdad quería que esta partida se acabara rápido

Eso tenía entendido. Yo lo sabía porque me lo dijo, y por eso expandí mi religión por todas mis ciudades, a ver si podía ganar por victoria religiosa, sabiendo que tendría los votos coreanos. Eso fue mucho antes de la paz con Amini.
Aún no entiendo porqué te atacó, todos vimos que le votaste.

[2metraninja]

It is possible that it is my lack of expertise in the English language (I don't really know what I understood or what I expressed wrongly)

Maybe I start to see from where our misunderstanding came. In my head it was 100% sure thing I can and I will kill you in the next 10-15 turns if I continue the war. And it was 99% sure thing I will win the game after this. So I wanted to speed up this inevitable turn of events for me, and as a side product do a good to you by letting you live and even finish second - a player who I always respected, and player who conducted more respect worthy in this specific game than Mocte in my humble opinion. Quite contrary, for you it seems it was some very unclear future for all of us and you think I was desperately looking for a way out of the war and to win via AP and you were making a fair trade - one shot at AP for me in exchange I stop making you small problems and dragging you to third place. If this is how you TRULLY was seeing the situation, then I might change my opinion that you lied to me on purpose and give it to your wrong reading of the situation in the game.

Problem is I think you also knew you will simply die and the deal is not going to be fair. And you said it yourself you could not believe I signed the deal, because you knew it is a door in a field and you knew how you will go out of it. Astro speaks a lot of "the spirit" of the championship etc. Well, let me use that wording. The spirit of the deal was that you are left alive and I win via AP. As I said I have our messages in my gmail. This is what I said and you said "consider we have a deal" and just after this you had sent me this ****ty written agreement. There was my mistake, I looked at this vague written argeement knowing it does not represent at all what we agreed and preffered to give it to your fear that I might go back on my word. It turns out it was a way to get away from the spirit of our agreement. And this should had ringed all my allarms and I must have either written a better agreement that will prevent you from shenanigans - like the one I had sent to HBHR. But knowing myselfm if I had decided you are trying to trick me, I would simply continued to attack you and kill you without any mercy you dont deserve.

You talk about Mack up and down, no idea, I barely interacted with someone named Mack, I think Vicente and another neighbor eliminated me pretty early in that game.

Mack is short for Macedon79 and he was Inca in that game where you was Babylon, I was Pacal and we were allies with you.

It's clear that you don't know why Korea voted the way it did.

I do know: he wanted to finish and he didn't care who won.

And that led you to lose, due to excess confidence in yourself. Do you see the pattern?

That is wrong on so many levels. First HBRH himself said after you that he voted for me in attempt to please me to buy time to prepare, so we know exactly "what the author of the poem ment" We had a lot of jokes in school about this. We were asked often "what the author ment by this" when there are methaphoras and we were making jokes that except if the author himself says what he wanted to say, we have no way of knowing. Second, if he does not cared much and just wanted to end the game as quick as possible, why he did not voted for you? You had way more hindu votes and if you had no chances to win you would not had proposed a vote at all. Your religious victory was looking more possible, yet he voted for me.

What led me to lose was that I wantd to play it the good guy and not simply plough you and everyone else who might oppose me later, as I was well able to do that.

What seems absolutely out of place to me are the insults and insinuations about morality neither about me nor about Vicente.

That is not acceptable

Nowhere I am describing or insulting you nor Vicente. I only say what happened, what your actions were and how they look to me. In my opinion it is not untrue, so I stay on my position.

And that was fulfilled on my part.

Let me know where the lie is and if not, apologize publicly.

You yourself know that this is not true. You had plan how to get out of the main idea (spirit) of our deal. It is like during divorce husbands sell all their cars for 1 dollar so they have to give 50 cents to their ex-wives. According to the law it is 100% fair, but for the moral? You sign to vote for me knowing how you will devalue your votes and in the end I will not get what you agreed I will get. Yeah, it is 100% fair according to the rules, but for the moral?

The rumors do not come from Vicente, I knew them BEFORE this game.

Now I know I can discuss it with him. Curious the desire to hide it if everything was correct.

You may have known them before that game, but it does not change the most likely source of those rummors. Simply Vicente told this to someone else first and you heard it from another player, not Vicente. Yet the spill must have come from him, because I did not said that to anyone else after Macedon asked me to not say it and it is highly unlikely that he will agrue hard with me to not tell it to others and then he himself go around and tell the story to others. I already explained why I wanted to hide it - it was because Mack asked me to hide it. For me there was nothing immoral in what we did, quite the opposite, I was and I am still proud of my decissions and actions.

Yet this is the fourth time you dont say about my 5 leva bet on that it was Vicente idea to accept my deal to spare your life by promissing to vote for me and how to get out of the deal.

I still don't understand why she attacked you, we all saw that you voted for her.

Well, you did not read what I wrote then. I explained in lenght that I wanted Wang to convert his huge cities to Hindu and I win AP despite your tricks. At that time I already knew you tricked me and I wanted to be sure and proposed specific written agreement to Wang and attacked him to make sure I will get what I want no matter by him signing the deal to survive (and end the game quicker and most painless) or by taking his big cities via war and convert them myself to hindu and use their votes.


I am sorry it turned a bit in to a blame fest, normally I would not do that. It was simply utter surprise. As I said, if I was expecting even 1% that I will be lied to, I would had never proposed such deal in the first place. Also, even if someone I trusted lied to me, I would make my opinion on the specific player and keep going and have my opinion handy when I have to deal with that specific player in future games. Also I would lose one more piece of trust in players in general, so everyone else would had to potentially suffer a bit more distrust in future games. But the end of the championship was announced. And reputation does not matter more.

[2metraninja]

(2mn is wrong when he says that after his attack I sent spies to the conquered cities. They were already there many turns ago).

Of course they were there before the actual conquest of the cities, otherwise they would not been able to make espionage mission so quick. I was playing second half of the timer and you changed my civics the very next turn, so I knew your spies were there the previous turn. What I ment was that you prepared those spies when you realised you will be attacked. Or you had those spies in your cities even before it was clear I will attack you, just in case someone attacks you?

[2metraninja]

Hello, regardless of your problem, I think it is important to point out that the spirit of the APT regulation is that, once the stipulated period of 40 turns for a NAP has expired, there is no obligation to keep the word given.

I am not complaining about the duration of the deal or what happened after it ran out. I never signed any deal that lasts more than 40 turns. Nor I am complaining about Sury does not sticking to the written deal we signed, nor I am disputing the final ranking. Where I did that? I am only pointing the fact that we made verbal deal, based on honor and morale and that deal was broken. There is almost always a way to get around of a deal you sign. It happens all the time in the real life, what to speak about a game. There are millions of advocates and judges which fight over otherwise well and extensive written legal agreements. And I am not even asking for judgement on wherether someone broke our written deal (despite Sury broke it 2 times - by attacking Carlo behind that imaginary line and when he did not asked me what to propose on the next vote). All I am saying is I believed him and wanted to make him good, while Sury tricked me and repayed me for sparing his life with cheating me. Thats all.

Apart from this, I remind you that I am the creator of the APT (Astrologix Pitboss Tournaments) championship.

The regulations were written, by me, thinking about real life.

Well, it comes again to the fact that you must use the vague "spirit". Why spirit if everything can be described and regulated? Because it cannot. And I am not asking that no one lies to me. I am just complaining he did that and refusing to congratulate him for victory taken by unfair (notice this - not "against the rules", but "unfair") way. I accept no rule was broken about our dela with Sury and never contested this. Anyway, you yourself say that the rules needs changes. Why so? I said already so many times that we are humans and no one can control how people feel and if they base their actions on feels. This is not chess. We as specie evolved to be on the top of the food chain because we developed feelings, we developed trust, we understood it is in our own favor to and return favors and form loyalty. And players mimic this in the games. It is so real-life. If you want to be sure there will be no feels-based actions, we should play duels. In duel everything is clear. It is you or him. Like in predator vs prey situation. There is no second place.

The concept "treason" does not exist in the regulations.
...
Therefore, betrayals or changes in alliances are phenomena that have occurred frequently in history.

Regarding this "betrayal" thing, it was you who said I cannot attack him in that previous game because "we were good friends and fought together against powerful enemy". So that feel of betrayal is well know to you, and it disturbs you so much that you stopped the game and asked for reload. Despite there is even big differences in those two situations. I never told you "I will not attack you", while Sury did told me he accepts he will get second place where I win by AP.

In recent games I have noticed the tendency to make alliances for the entire game.

It is not in recent games. I saw this from the very first game I joined in the APT. People were calmly waiting for Buddah to achieve his culture victory. I was the only one who opposed him and tried to organize opposition, but stuck in stone wall of other players dont wanting to go against him, because he either spared their lives, either he was good friend through the game.

In the first game I won on APT Towers was trumpeting how the rules require that everyone go fight against me, but he himself had life-long ally in China - dont remember who the player was, but he refused to drop Towers even after it was clear he will die and China will be next. I offered him numerous times to drop Towers and live to see the end of the game. He said he dont have NAP but refused to drop Towers. It was just after Towers died that China came and asked me to spare his life, telling me it was his duty by the rules to oppose me lol. In that game Estilpon himself did not joined Towers in his fight against me. Why? He had quite strong army and empire but we were game-long partners, but we had no NAP, nor I asked Estilpon to be my friend. Chinchin also refused to join Towers against me. Why? Back then Towers threw a tantrum that my win is not valid because everyone was supporting me without a reason and that is against the rules, while I had no any deal with any of those players and he himself had life-long supporter with whom he exchanged units and was coordinating in everything. Plus, it was Towers who was going to win the game if I did not stopped his culture victory and then killed him LOL.

Later I saw so many times people agreeing to vote someone winner by AP or simply refuse to use their military power against someone else, because they felt that way. Vicente did that 2 times which I know of - propose and vote for someone else because he gave his word instead of fight him to the bitter end. What is different by me asking Estilpon to vote me AP winner? For me was perfect in line with game logic and morale. I spare his life and he vote me winner. The game was already decided in my mind. I was going to kill Sury and no one could save him, as I had NAPs with all others. After killing Sury who could stop me? For me it was clear how the game will end. It is not like he votes for me because we are real life friends and he wants to cheat the normal game logic. Ive seen this. People vote someone who dont have any chance to win otherwise just to rob the most likely winner of his win. LOL, even Estilpon said he was afraid I will vote Eli UN winner to spite him and deny him victory. This is an example of denial vote for unlogical end of the game. The game logic was I was going to win the game, but one way was to kill Sury and I offered him way out of this. He said he accepts. For difference HBHR did not wanted to see me winner and told me he will fight and die. That is totally OK, it is how he felt and I respect that. I have no complains for HBR's morale and honor. But Estilpon admitted defeat, accepted he will get second place and vote me winner and then went back on his word and tricked me.

Maybe if we exclude all other winning conditions besides Conquest then we can be sure everyone acts purely on his own agenda at all times?

[Vicente_Pisha]

Sorry man, I dont know you in real life, I only know you from interactions we had in the games we played. It was only one game where we had interactions actually. In this game you first switched sides from our alliance and joined our enemy, then you signed deal you will switch again sides this time attacking the one who you switched sides to earler and in the end you voted and elected AP winner the same guy you signed you will fight. For my standarts this is unusual high level of flexibility in a single game.

Uno de los motivos por los que hice esos dos cambios de bando porque Mack y tú me convencisteis de que era lo mejor y lo más ético. Parece que los cambios de bando os parecen bien cuando os benefician, pero no cuando os perjudican. Has estado defendiendo en otro post que pediste cambios de bando contra Towers y muchas otras veces, pero cuando son contra ti no te parecen tan bien.
El otro motivo fue porque tú te estabas aprovechando de mí.
Mi opinión sobre los cambios de bando: Jamás he traicionado a alguien que me ha ayudado. En el caso de la partida que cuentas tú no me habías ayudado en nada, más bien te habías aprovechado de mí. Y Mack me ayudó después de dejarme abandonado ante ti cuando ya no le interesó.


One of the reasons I made those two changes of sides was because you and Mack convinced me that it was the best and most ethical thing to do. It seems that changing sides is okay with you when it benefits you, but not when it harms you. You have been defending in another post that you asked for changes of sides against Towers and many other times, but when they are against you they don't seem so good to you.

The other reason was because you were taking advantage of me.

My opinion on changing sides: I have never betrayed someone who has helped me. In the case of the game you describe, you had not helped me at all, rather you had taken advantage of me. And Mack helped me after he abandoned me to you when he was no longer interested.

Oh, also I shared some information with you and then asked you not to tell it to others, you promise not to tell it and then I hear this thing as rumor from others.

Curiosamente me acusas a mí de no ser de fiar por contar algo que no he contado. Has sido tú el que ha hecho público en este hilo vuestra trampa. Alguien dicho "he escuchado rumores" y tú lo has contado todo, a pesar de que prometiste a Mack no hacerlo.
El que no es de fiar aquí no soy yo.
Ahora que lo has contado, podría todo el mundo (incluido Astro) dar su opinión de lo que a mí me parece el atentado más grande contra este campeonato y que yo no se lo dije a Astro porque me pediste no hacerlo. Aquí el tramposo no soy yo.



Curiously, you accuse me of not being trustworthy for telling something I have not told. You were the one who made your cheat public in this thread. Someone said "I've heard rumors" and you told everything, even though you promised Mack not to.

The one who is not trustworthy here is not me
Now that you've told it, everyone (including Astro) could give their opinion on what seems to me to be the biggest attack against this championship and that I didn't tell Astro because you asked me not to. The cheater here is not me.

[macedon79]

First TY astro for this championship. Before of this a played on site were the competion was very strong , was no diplomacy and TT was off. I fond games here been more relaxed and well having 40 turns Naps you can develop your civilization.

Very interisting discution here. Vicente is totaly rigt, he was about to die and the other didnt moved a finger ( and I would have destroyed him, even that after i would have been destroyed as well), this way both finished game and me was first and him second, and was my best game in this championship. And after that even our NAP ended i kept him in game even that costed at some point an entire Golden age.

About long aliance I know from when I started to play in this championship 90% of aliances were formed against me so when I found a friend I helped him to the bitter end.


Now that you've told it, everyone (including Astro) could give their opinion on what seems to me to be the biggest attack against this championship and that I didn't tell Astro because you asked me not to. The cheater here is not me.

Who cheated? And how cheated? I am litle bit lost here....You and the other formed an aliance and you never broke, we formed an aliance and kept it and even more when vote came i had clear advantage in all metrics, and i dont see why someone can stop me to vote how I want .

[Estilpón]

Unas breves puntualizaciones random, sin ser exhaustivo:

Cierto, el motivo de Corea lo habías contado, mi memoria a corto falla. A la vista está que tu memoria es muy buena, no tengo ni idea de cuál fue tu primera partida ni qué hice yo.
En ningún momento pensé que en 15 turnos estaba muerto. No lo llegué a calcular, pero pensaba que tus cazas destruirían mi terreno, mis ciudades costeras serían indefendibles y la partida sería una ruina, pero no podías conquistarme tan rápidamente varias de las ciudades interiores por la cultura existente, a pesar de la ruina económica. Y viví una situación así, no sé si contra metra o macedon, y aguanté muchísimo más tiempo (cierto que el área interior era mayor), sobretodo por la necesidad del atacante de acumular unidades y exponerse, y a pesar de existir terreno por colonizar (increíble aquel fallo mío).
En la partida que hablas ¿cuantas veces crees que Mack me ofreció cambiar de bando?
Inglaterra nunca tuvo 50k puntos de espionaje contra mí (es uno de los errores que has puesto en tu crónica, no el único). Lo puedes ver en mi pantallazo. Los tuvo Mocte.
Otro error es eso de que repites de que ataqué a Carlo más allá de una línea imaginaría. Eso nunca ocurrió. Esa línea imaginaria la propuse yo en el tratado para limitarme, pero fue Carlo quién atacó a través de esa línea y rompió esa cláusula del tratado, habilitándome a mí a responder TRAS su ataque. Lo he explicado muy clarito en mi crónica. De hecho, si le hubieras dicho a Carlo esa cláusula y la hubiera respetado, pienso que hubieras ganado la partida.
La lógica de votar a Eli para la victoria diplomática es que tú ya no tenías posibilidades de ganar, pero está claro que pensabas que aún tenías opciones con las nukes.
Sí me pediste que no atacara a Carlo, y de hecho, paré los ataques, pero luego fue Carlo quien vino a buscar gresca. Y la encontró.
Como residente del PA, yo no podía forzar a nadie a que me votara, pero otro (Metra) sí podía exigirlo en los tratos. Eso es según el reglamento, y eso acepté.
Claro que pensé en los votos de Corea para ganar por victoria religiosa, pero calculé que no me daba tiempo.
Vicente me asesoró muy bien en general, y la decisión final y responsabilidad es mía. Fue un lujo poder compartir con él la situación de la partida.

(Agradezco públicamente a Vicente sus aportaciones).


Mi conversación sobre esto termina en este post. no hay más comunicación posible con quién te acusa así, y que en cada intervención sigue deslizando la misma valoración para hacer daño. Llevo aquí 22 años.

[astrologix]

Regarding this "betrayal" thing, it was you who said I cannot attack him in that previous game because "we were good friends and fought together against powerful enemy". So that feel of betrayal is well know to you, and it disturbs you so much that you stopped the game and asked for reload. Despite there is even big differences in those two situations. I never told you "I will not attack you", while Sury did told me he accepts he will get second place where I win by AP.

I don't know what game you are talking about

[astrologix]

Now that you've told it, everyone (including Astro) could give their opinion on what seems to me to be the biggest attack against this championship and that I didn't tell Astro because you asked me not to. The cheater here is not me.

Who cheated? And how cheated? I am litle bit lost here....You and the other formed an aliance and you never broke, we formed an aliance and kept it and even more when vote came i had clear advantage in all metrics, and i dont see why someone can stop me to vote how I want .

Please, I need explanation about that. What is the thing I was not intended to know?