Teach me!

[vondrack]

Since I know how much parties not directly involved in wars love reading about them and about what led to them, and because I believe spilling some beans now will not do any harm, here we go:

Originally posted by Blake
The strategically brilliant move, was telling me you were going to invade Japan. That led me to reluctantly break off communications with Japan ("non-interference"), leaving the negotiations and such wide open for you.
Very clever, if it was intentional, and even if it wasn't (which I'd guess), still very effective. Because otherwise I wouldn't have hesitated to tech Japan up and bring them into the war.

Well, it wasn't intentional... I mean, I wasn't making it up - I would have indeed invaded Japan if Solver didn't agree to a deal I offered him after your armies invaded Mongolia. I was getting ready for the inevitable blow (which I would hate to deal, BTW), when the whole thing started. See details below.

Originally posted by Blake
The only reason I had to declare war was because Japan had been teched up and if it looks like a war bribe, walks like a war bribe, and quacks like a war bribe... well I'm going to assume it's a war bribe and not wait for the formalities. "Neutrality" is unfortunately not an option when territory is needed for passage, because closure of borders can at any time send those armies for a nice long teleport, there's only two ways to get guaranteed passage : Vassalage and War.

The funny thing is what looked like a war bribe, walked like a war bribe, and quacked like a war bribe... was in fact an extortion at least as much as a bribe. When you crossed the Mongolian border, I knew the game was at its turning point (we both knew it).

I immediately contacted Solver, explained the situation, offered generous tech assistance & lifetime guarantee of non-agression - if only I was given what I wanted... which was not Japan actively joining the war! It was something else and if you recall our last talks, you will realize I even told you what it was.

I needed Japanese oil.

Yeah, Egypt was lacking oil... One was fairly close, but in the Japanese territory - it was the lack of oil (and its presence in Japan) that gave me pretty much no choice, but to plan on invading Japan.

I expressly stated that if my proposal was not accepted immediately, Egyptian armies would invade Japan with no hesitation - they were actually 100% ready for that...

Of course the complicated thing here is Solver, I have no idea what Solver said about the state/history of relationships (and it's not my place to tell other players what their relationship with me is). But Solver gained at least half a dozen cities under my sponsorship/prodding and a lot of tech (of course I avoided gifting tech I wasn't allowed to trade), Solver also offered to Vassalize Japan off under the AI, to the Celts, I told him to get a substitute player. I think it was clear who Solver would have sided with, but if he didn't give explicit instructions to "be loyal to the Celts" then ah so, that's how it is.

If Solver had remained playing

I'd like to stress here that the deal was worked out with Solver, not with Nolan. I would consider dealing directly with Nolan unacceptable for numerous reasons, one of them being our longtime real-world friendship - I know she'd have probably joined me in the war for out-of-game reasons... which was why I approached Solver first (he then gave her instructions on what to do).

BTW... the Japanese owed a little bit not only to the Celts, but to the Egyptians, too. You might have let them get some spoils of your war against the Vikings... Egypt let them keep their second, copper city. (Solver left it with no garrison - and my Woodsman II exploring warrior happened to arrive in the neighbourhood ). It was not just this, but other stuff, too - I was trying to be on good terms with Japan just as much as you tried to.

I'm not sure if there was anything you could have done to prevent what happened, given the situation. Perhaps if you forgot about "non-interference" (which you should have, given I told you plainly I'd fight you in any new war) and propped Solver right away, so that I would be in no position to extort anything... but that's could'a would'a...

I would have merrily brought him into my wars without a second thought and also would have sided with Solver against Vondrack, if it came to that (in fact I'd specifically stated I'd come to the defense of Japan in any war, with the subtext being "Vondrack" since no-one else could get to Japan).

Solver was in an interesting position, geographically, in that neither me nor you could have let the other take Japan without fight. Just like you were ready to come to Japan's aid against Egypt, I was ready to help Japan against the Celts if needed (and told Solver so a long time ago).

But it's not so much a case of betrayal as just misplaced loyalty. I more than half expected Vondrack would attack me, but I didn't expect he'd bribe Japan against me (or use them as a shield, same diff), because that's so completely tactless given the Japan-Celt history.

Hope the above explains the situation (Solver, anything to add?), I wouldn't say it was misplaced loyalty. Japan had very little choice - either agree to my proposal and be inevitably drawn into the war against you, or refuse, and be immediately attacked by me. Kyoto would fall on the first turn of my invasion - troops originally assigned for the amphibious assault on Kyoto are now carefully taking sunshine on a hill near Nidaros - and other core cities would probably fall before you could reinforce them (the Japanese had hopelessly obsolete armed forces in general).

I can't speak for Solver, but his decision made sense enough - siding with Egypt gave him (well, Nolan) few more turns to live in peace (yes, it was obvious you'd eventually attack Japan in that case). Plus... when the player twice as strong as anyone else makes his final move - did you genuinely expect much help?

It's entirely possible this wasn't obvious to Nolan, it may not have been obvious to Vondrack - but given that I wouldn't have attacked Japan, the only reason for Vondrack to give Japan tech, is if it's part of a "Hey, attack the Celts" deal. If Japan had remained un-teched up, I would have treated them as neutral bystanders and marched through to destroy Vondrack, but all evidence pointed to Japan's neutrality being utterly compromised, making them a ticking timebomb on my borders.

You did the right thing, Japan has no longer been a neutral country - it was acting in agreement with Egypt, even if planning no open hostilities against the Celts. You attacking it was expected and is definitely understood.

Unfortunately, Civ3/Civ4 put severe constraints on what one would call "loyalty" or "long-term partnership". The game is to be won by one single player alone - which means everybody must do his/her best to prevent everybody else from winning, unless effectively giving the game up.

If there's one single thing about Civ I truly hate, it's exacly this... yet I have to live with it. The Egyptians haven't had a better trading partner than the Celts in this game. Yet they had no choice but to break the ties and become fierce enemies now...

You've got my utmost respect, Blake, and it's an honour to fight you - take it as a compliment that several other players had to ally (btw... still accepting new members! ) to have at least a fighting chance against your monstrous empire... how much of a chance, we'll see.

Good luck!

[Blake]

FYI, you didn't tell me about interference/non-interference.

All you said is that you'd attack Japan, so that I couldn't use them as an effective ally.

edit: Which is indirect interference...

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Blake
FYI, you didn't tell me about interference/non-interference.

All you said is that you'd attack Japan, so that I couldn't use them as an effective ally.

edit: Which is indirect interference...

I told you quite plainly - but perhaps you did not read the words that way. We were talking about your "bid for domination victory" and you said something about having to fight the whole world "perhaps except you" - and I remarked "including me". It's possible you missed that line, unless you were using the "Chat Log" window (or didn't think it really meant what it meant).

OTOH... I didn't say anything about attacking Japan so that you couldn't use them as an effective ally - I said I had to attack them to get oil.

Come to think of it... it's funny... I've been living under the impression that I was so abundantly clear back then that I'd turn against you had your army moved against alexman or Gyathaar - while it might have sounded not even remotely that obvious to you... but as you said, you half expected me to attack you (anyone with half a brain should expect so), so I hope there are no hard feelings.

[Blake]

No hard feelings.

But I really didn't read anything as saying you'd attack me, because I thought that would be motivated by spite.

But thinking about it, your position is by far the best to win by Spaceship because the others can't easily dogpile you, this is especially true if you secure the tough as nuts Japanese as a shield.

This leaves it firmly up to me to do the invading needed to ward off SS victory, but that could be difficult when I'm fighting a two-front war against 4 players. Good play, good play .

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Blake
But I really didn't read anything as saying you'd attack me, because I thought that would be motivated by spite.

Definitely not spite - it's the twisted logic of this game that makes my involvement in the war a must. It's only a matter of time before you have to turn against even your best friend - or your best friend against you...

Many others in this game have always feared alexman, kind of ignoring the ever-rising darkness in the West... I believe that have I stayed neutral at this moment, the game would be over very soon. I was not yet ready to give it up.

Originally posted by Blake
This leaves it firmly up to me to do the invading needed to ward off SS victory

Yeah... you'll be busy warding off SS victory, while the Allies will be busy warding off your domination victory... and everybody else will be busy with beer and pretzels, having fun watching how we all bleed dry...

I hate love hate love... ... after all those years, I am really not sure what kind of feelings I have towards Civ... either way, it's quite intense... I'm probably... addicted.

[Beta]

Great read guys. Thanks for the insights into what is truly a remarable game so far.

Emperor Toxo pops open another beer and grabs a handful of pretzels.

And Vondrack - I agree wholeheartedly with you about the love-hate relationship with the game. I feel the same way in other games where I have had to attack my good friend proviisori, and vice-versa.

In one game (New World) it got so bad I declared outright neutrality and bunkered with walls and castles. In all good conscience I could not attack either snoopy (who had saved my bacon earlier in the game) or provi.

I guess conscience should have no place in civ, which is, after all, only a game ...isn't it?

[condor223]

I'm also enjoying the notes, as there were very few when I inherited Japan. Alas! It was in the stone age between two very strong and very modern civs.

It was clear that Japan is being kept as the last addition to a domination victory. It is defenseless and had been sending medieval warriors as tribute, so even when a few home units are upgraded, they would never account to much. Due to the lower tech rate, Japan was guaranteed to be the last meal of the game.

As a short asside, here, I am upstairs on an ancient computer at the bedside, that cant play the game, even if I was up to playing. The hospital released me and told me to get a family doctor to coordinate various medical situations us old folks tend to get. The hospital was set up to deal only with the basics for me. Hopefully Toni can do some turns for me, but I've not heard from him, so might just let the AI run the civ for a while... that is if there is a civ left to return to.

------------------
All of this game history playing with the "gods of Civ" brings me to wonder if the others thought they might outlast the stronger, while they killed each other.. or if perhaps there was thought that they could actually win the game?

As my civving experience has grown from c3c to btw, I see a wider and wider difference from those who are expert players.. true experts and the rest of the MP players. Perhaps in SP one rarely gets a feel for the prowress of the other well posted players.

SOme of my frustration was that it is harder and harder to even maintain a mediocre game skill as civ has grown. Once upon a time I nearly caught Fried, while he was distracted. I no longer feel I can keep up with the ladder aces. It cant be from not trying, as you know I play (ed) more than 3-5 games a day for 4 years, had access to those who know the game best, but find myself snowed by the few who have ace playing skills.

I think there is also a trickle down effect in this "getting more difficult to master" situation. I am frustrated and find the "sick time" useful for examining why I play so hard, tackle playing with the "big boys" when I know im no damn good at the game any more, since its gotten very hard to master.

I have the C4f program and have access to the lobbies. Warlords lobby is nearly bare, Civ4 has some players, and to my surprise C3C is bussier than BTS at times. Perhaps that comes from the fact that one can master the game with a certain amt of application. One can actually have their time at the top of the c3c heap, but its not so in bts. Those who have that ace ability are not teaching it, the rest of the folks might get tired of never getting anywhere, having no teacher or group who can teach the ace level game, and they move on or move back to the older game.

In response to a message in this thread, the idea is to WIN.. well, in playing with ace players, those with decent playing skills just dont have an ice cubes chance in hell. We are along for the ride and to see who wins the battle. I love the chance to see great players in action, but have to swallow my pride and realize just how far ahead they are.

The Diplo game group also has its talent span, but it seems they have evolved a style of free for all games, that give the "lesser players" a chance to enjoy the game through alliances. If my ace ally wins the game, I feel I had a part of it. At the start of our diplo games, there is the usual.. "that's my land" ... I want the tile with the rice.." the starting squabbles, till everyone makes their "stake".

Toni befriended me in his second diplo game, and since he was the winner in his first one, the others were reluctant to ally with him and plan teching etc. He took up the noobs and organized them, and with that, we had a sense of winning because he won the second and third one. Maybe the game was not designed that way, but in game alliances with mixed talent is incredibly fun, informative and makes for good friends.

Enough rambling about the talent spread in games. It is normal, and with some thought the best players can make it good fun for the others. Without such consideration I have seen diplo players stop showing up for the epic game when they are far far below the top pointers.

War is fun when there is some chance to keep even and in the game.

Would like to hear more thoughts about how difficult it is to become an ace player these days.

If I can get well and still have a civ, I will love to keep watching the top players match skills with each other in our game. Hopefully Toni can take my turns, till Iam able to be a reliable member again. I just dont know if I can take my turns mid war. I certainly have nothing to war with... vs either faction.

[Blake]

Does Willy look like a man who fears for his life?



No way! Willy looks like a man who knows the Gods are on his side! Sure he's only armed with an Axe, but he's wearing a Kilt!!!, actually this is a new Celtic fashion! It's the thigh-exposing mini-kilt with a loin-cloth for the sake of decency when going commando! Still, should any of those scrawny men of other nations (unwisely) stand under the hill I would suggest they avoid looking up, lest they end up feeling quite inadequate!
Shock and awe and horror! Shock and awe and horror!

[snoopy369]

Blake, we need to get you into another PTBS if only for the amusement factor of your posts

(... and to ensure that people gang up on someone else )

[Gyathaar]

Originally posted by Blake
[b]Does Willy look like a man who fears for his life?

No way!

If he isn't afraid.. then why does he hide behind infantry?

[condor223]

Go Team!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4LNjNXt1yM

More if you are in the mood for haka.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cle20lQg0Qs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_BCKZqDLUM&NR=1

[Andydog]

Go the All Blacks!

[vondrack]

Awesome, this haka thing (although I guess it would be more appropriate for the Celts to use it here ).

Game Spy has crashed (whoa? how come? ever happened to you, too? ) and took the game down - we need the server to be restarted.

[Wittlich]

Yes, GameSpy crashes from time to time. It's the nature of the beast I guess...

[Blake]

After Gyathaar destroyed my city with a double move, there was a heated PM exchange (albeit, most of the heat was from me). Turns out I assumed we were playing no double moves (and it's what I've observed), and Gyathaar assumed everyone was using them. This incident was resolved satisfactorily.

It's unfortunate that we never formalized anything about double moves. It hasn't really come up until now, I've done most the fighting, and I've played mostly honorably - or honorably enough to not cause my victims to call foul.

Now there's a lot more war going on, but unfortunately it's statistically 4 times more likely that I'll be the one to see suspect behavior, so it's up to me to press the issue...

So i figure hey, why not just formalize?

This is what I propose:
1) End your turn (In Teach Alexman, do as Alexman does, capiche?), in the interest of having the game move faster and in "shuffling" the new turn around such that it doesn't get stuck in the middle of someones night, and also so it can't be predicted (setting an alarm is lame strategy :P).
2) Make a good faith effort to leave at least 8 hours (preferably 12) between major strategic movements on successive turns. This is important so that people feel safe doing #1, without needing to "preempt" double moves by delaying their end turn. This also eliminates the advantage of being "credibly indecisive" about committing to an attack - if you only commit at the last minute, wait 8 hours! (If your end turn starts the new turn, you can set your builds and move your workers around the core, but if you just moved a massive stack up to another players' city, wait a while eh?)

Anyone have a problem with following that simple conduct, or a better suggestion? (I think most people are doing it anyway, but why not formalize)
(CivStats is good enough enforcement in that it makes some things pretty blatant or at least highly suspicious looking)

And it's true, I have more to lose by people not playing honorably, so I am biased, but whatever.