Ruleset Discussion

[OzzyKP]

Sommers posted his own set of rules:

01. Rule Breaking

When rules are being broken the game will be reloaded to the closest previous point that undoes the rule violation. The host can reload immediately when the breaking of a rule is obvious to everyone involved. If it's not obvious to everyone, or there is a disagreement over whether a rule was broken, the game will be paused, for an admin to decide.

02. Wartime Double Moves

a. Civilizations that are at war must observe turn order. Turn order is automatically fixed by the APT Mod on the first turn of war. However, teams must also observe turn order on the turn immediately prior to the first turn of War. So if the Attacker (party Declaring War) played after the Defender (party who war is declared upon) in the turn before the war starts, then the Attacker must let the Defender play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. If the Attacker wishes to have first to move during the War, he must move first in the turn prior to the beginning of the War. Attackers can always wait until after the Defender moves to login and declare war if they intend to move second in the War, regardless of whether they moved before or after the Defender in the prior turn.

b. When other players come into a war in progress, they must be careful to play into the correct half of the turn, so that then the Mod automatically places them on the appropriate side of the turn timer.

c. Non-Wartime Doublemoves are allowed.

d. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, rebuilding, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

03. Rule Change Procedure

a. When the game has started, rules can only be changed if the Teams unanimously agree to change the rules, or the Admin determines that a rule change is needed.

04. Out of Game Actions

a. Team Espionage -All external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams are not allowed. Example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

b. Game / Pitboss / Save Manipulation or Disruption - Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Intentionally disrupting access to the Pitboss host server is not allowed. Intentionally opening Diplomacy screens and then pausing, intending to lock teams out of playing their turn is not allowed.

c. Teams making diplomatic contact before they have met in-game is not allowed.

05. In Game Actions

a. Suicide Training - Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is not allowed.

b. City Gifting - Conquest, culture flip, UN resolution, and AP resolution are the only permitted methods of city transfer.

c. Unit Gifting - Gifting a unit with experience needed to promote to Level 4 to teams who have not built the Heroic Epic and cannot currently do so is not allowed. Gifting a unit with experience needed to promote to Level 6 to teams who have not built West Point and cannot currently do so is not allowed.

06. Administration

a. Pausing - Any Team may pause the game. Any Team may unpause the game. If a Team needs the game to stay paused, they must post in the turn-tracker thread. 72 hours after such a post is made, any team may un-pause the game. If the Admin determines a team is abusing pauses he may suspend or otherwise restrict a teams right to pause the game.

b. Game Administrator - r_rolo1 has sole authority as game administrator. Alternate and/or replacement administrators must be agreed to by all teams.

c. Bugs - The use of any bug is not allowed. Examples include, but are not limited to, Free Tech Bug, Unlimited Gold Bug etc. The decision about exactly what constitutes a bug rests solely with the admin. Consult with the admin if any action you are considering may be a bug.

d. Defeated Teams -Player on teams that are eliminated are permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team.

I don't have the bandwidth to care about the ruleset. So if anyone wants to weigh in on the issue, please do so.

[mzprox]

I still don1t like the idea of this mod. if we didn1t use it we could probably start the game this weekend. but if we wait for the mod it can take weeks or months.

[OzzyKP]

Well, the mod has been decided upon. I don't think there are many edits needed before it is good to go. But I could be wrong, I haven't been following discussion on it very closely.

[Hercules]

02. Wartime Double Moves

a. Civilizations that are at war must observe turn order. Turn order is automatically fixed by the APT Mod on the first turn of war. However, teams must also observe turn order on the turn immediately prior to the first turn of War. So if the Attacker (party Declaring War) played after the Defender (party who war is declared upon) in the turn before the war starts, then the Attacker must let the Defender play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. If the Attacker wishes to have first to move during the War, he must move first in the turn prior to the beginning of the War. Attackers can always wait until after the Defender moves to login and declare war if they intend to move second in the War, regardless of whether they moved before or after the Defender in the prior turn.

b. When other players come into a war in progress, they must be careful to play into the correct half of the turn, so that then the Mod automatically places them on the appropriate side of the turn timer.

c. Non-Wartime Doublemoves are allowed.

d. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, rebuilding, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

Knowing how Sommers plays I would ask those more experienced to examine the full ruleset but these in particular to see if we are content.

It's a good tactic to draw attention to one part and slip through other difficult wordy stuff. However just suspicious of any proposal from Sommers.

[DNK]

AGREED (to Hercules - let's parse it carefully).

There was a lot of talk about not allowing people to bombard/sabotage tiles immediately following their being hooked up. Sommers, MR ESP, has oddly dropped this. Basically, he's going to walk all over the rules to cater to his sole ESP economy and give him huge advantages in the game (as bombardment isn't an issue until much, much later than spies).

That rule NEEDS to be reincluded to prevent him from further abusing his unique advantages.

[OzzyKP]

I remember that talk, but was there any part of that the double move mod is taking care of? I don't recall.

I agree we should look over the rules carefully, but I"m not the one to do it. If y'all want me to pass something along on CFC I'm happy to do it. Just tell me what to say. Or if someone wants to get into the nitty gritty, speak up and you can negotiate on our behalf.

[DNK]

By the way, Parkin's original ruleset that SOmmers altered:

1) Settling Races: Teams must wait 12 hours between moves for all settlers in disputed areas. You cannot move at the end of a turn, and then immediate re-move at the start of the next turn.

2) (a) Turn Before Declaring War: The attacker must move their units during the first 6 hours on the turn before declaring war, to avoid a double move.

(b) Declaring War: Attackers must declare war in the first 6 hours of the turn. Upon declaring war, the attacker immediately takes the first half of the timer split. The defender must log out until either the attacker finishes turn or the first half of the turn split ends. The attacker has until the end of the first half of the timer split to complete his turn, whereupon he must log out and cannot log back in until the first half of the turn split during the next turn.

Since the defender will always have a chance to play the second half of the turn the attacker should make every reasonable effort to declare war at the very start of the turn to avoid confusion.

(c) Declaring War While at War: Teams at war occupying second half of a turn-time may declare war at any time during the second half of the turn-timer. The team they declare war on then occupies the first half of the turn-timer the following turn. If the team who is declared on has yet to move during the turn of declaration, that team can still move their units during the second half of the turn-timer for that one turn only. Teams occupying the first half of the turn timer must obey rule 2) (a) and rule 2) (b).

(d) Turn Timer Extensions: Teams at war may request a maximum of 24 additional hours added to the turn timer for the first turn of a war. Starting from the second turn the turn timer will be extended by 24 hours for the duration of the war.

3) (a) Joining an Existing War: Teams joining a side in an existing war on the must take the same half of the clock timer (first half attacker, second half defender). Teams must synchronize playing time with turn timer half of their respective side on the turn before declaring war.

(b) Free-For-Alls: War declarations between teams sharing the same half of the turn timer due to ongoing wars must obey rule 2) (a) and rule 2) (b) for the specific turn timer half the teams occupy. This rule overrides rule 2) (c). Additional turn timer changes will be adjudicated by the game admin.

4) Turn Actions during War: During their half of the timer split, teams can take all normal civ actions. Once the attacker(s) have all ended turn, or after half the turn timer has passed, their turn is over and the defender(s) turn begins. When it is not their turn in wartime, teams may NOT log into the game.

5) Resource Bombing/Sabotage: Resources cannot be disconnected by spies or bombs the turn they are connected. Resources cannot be connected the turn they are disconnected by spies or bombs.

This prevents teams occupying the second half of the turn timer keeping resources constantly disconnected due to turn timer mechanics. Please document with pictures and inform the game admin and the opposing team as appropriate when this situation may occur.

6) Dispute Resolution: Double moves that confer unfair competitive advantages to any team are not allowed. Please respect both the spirit and the letter of the rules. The game admin has sole authority to resolve disputes and administer appropriate corrective action.



Summary: No unfair double moves

No cheesy settler double moves
Teams declaring war must declare in the first 6 hours
When you attack you must attack in the first 6 hours and take first half of the turn split; defender takes the second half
You have to join your ally's time split when entering a pre-existing war
No logging in when it is not your turn


Example:
Team A wishes to declare war on Team B. Team A plays in the first 6 hours of the turn BEFORE the war declaration, then declares war in the first 6 hours of the following turn. Team A thereafter always plays in the first half, and Team B always plays in the second half, until the war ends.

[DNK]

Major differences between the two (let's try to guess CFC's/Sommers' motives):

1. settling races now allowed
Don't see the issue here. We have two turnplayers, plus we're delayed REXing.

2. double moves altered:
Now, there's none of Parkin's "move within the first 6 hours of the turn" stuff, which imo was a bit nonsense. We never had that here, and it's worked pretty well without it.

3. Parkin's #5 was removed:
The heart of the matter, I think. This let's anyone with strong espionage deny a resource to an adversary indefinitely.

4. Addition of a pause:
Teams can pause and unpause at will, though a team can ask for a 72-hour pause. 3 day pauses? Ugh. I think we should argue it down to at least half. And the admin should be advised to keep them to a minimum (ie be very strict about "abusing" pauses).

[OzzyKP]

Note that this is Parkin's adjusted ruleset:

1 Out of Game Actions

1.1 -- Team Espionage
Using external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams is forbidden.
example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

1.2 -- Screenshot Trading
Screenshots taken in-game of a city, minimap, or anything else may only be given, traded, or exchanged to other teams once one of the pair knows paper.

1.3 -- Save Manipulation
Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Any actions that would allow you to edit or view the save file of another team is not allowed.


2 In Game Actions

2.1 -- Suicide Training
Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is forbidden.


3 In Game Gifts

3.1 –- Military Unit Gifting
Gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed is prohibited.
Great People are excepted from this rule, and may be gifted at any time.

3.2 -– Naval Unit Gifting
A team may never gift units loaded in a naval vessel to another team, nor may they gift a loaded naval vessel.

3.3 –- Double Move Gifting
Units that have attacked in a turn are not allowed to be gifted to any other civilization.

3.4 –- City Gifting
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill and should not be abused to deny right of conquest or to keep a civilization alive indefinitely and out of the hands of an aggressor.


4 Game Procedure

4.1 -- Turn Timer
The PitBoss server will give each team 24 hours in which to play the save and pass it on to the next team. If a team is unable to play in time, they may post a request for an extension in the turn-tracker thread, and state the reason they believe it should be granted. AFTER the extension request and rational have been posted in the turn tracker, that team may then pause the game.
The game may remain paused up to 120 hours, at which point any team may un-pause the game so play may resume.
An official vote to “continue sooner” may be posted by any team in the turn-tracker thread. Each such vote by a team will reduce the 120 hour extension by 24 hours.

4.2 -- Awareness
If you discover a rules violation it is your duty to inform all participants (via Game Forum) of the violation or the solicitation thereof by any player.

4.3 -- New Exploits
If you discover a new exploit it is your duty to inform all participants (via Game Forum). Amendments for banning newly discovered exploits will require a majority vote.

4.4 -- Voting
After the game has commenced votes are tallied by team, not by individuals within the teams. Three-fifths (3/5) Majority.

4.5 -- Punishments for Violations
Violations of these rules will be dealt with through the use of various in-game sanctions decided upon by Team Vote. Possible punishments include: Gold Payment, exclusion of a team member for a certain amount of turns, a formal warning, or anything else deemed appropriate by a majority vote. A Team Member has the right not to be tried twice for the same infraction (i.e. double jeopardy).

4.6 -- Defeated Teams
If a team is defeated, any player on that team is permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players are free to share any information from their old team with their new team. This includes any images or screenshots or treaty documents that they "salvaged upon fleeing from the burning rubble of their last city." They may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team. Additionally, defeated players may opt out of the remainder of the game.

[OzzyKP]

Between that set of rules, and the rules Sommers posted I noticed these changes:

1.2 -- Screenshot Trading (taken out by Sommers)
Screenshots taken in-game of a city, minimap, or anything else may only be given, traded, or exchanged to other teams once one of the pair knows paper.


3 In Game Gifts

3.1 –- Military Unit Gifting (taken out by Sommers)
Gifting/receiving units for the purpose of fighting an enemy while in an ally's territory who isn't at war with them, and then gifting it back to avoid it being killed is prohibited.
Great People are excepted from this rule, and may be gifted at any time.

3.2 -– Naval Unit Gifting (taken out by Sommers)
A team may never gift units loaded in a naval vessel to another team, nor may they gift a loaded naval vessel.

3.3 –- Double Move Gifting (taken out by Sommers)
Units that have attacked in a turn are not allowed to be gifted to any other civilization.

3.4 –- City Gifting (Sommers restricts all city gifting)
Gifting a city to an ally when it is about to be taken in war, or to somehow gain an advantage is prohibited. Gifting cities are only allowed as gifts of goodwill and should not be abused to deny right of conquest or to keep a civilization alive indefinitely and out of the hands of an aggressor.

[DNK]

Feel like having city gifting out altogether is better. I dislike Parkin's allowing it in peacetime - there's a lot of cheese to be had there.

120-hour pauses

[Ben Kenobi]

There was a lot of talk about not allowing people to bombard/sabotage tiles immediately following their being hooked up. Sommers, MR ESP, has oddly dropped this. Basically, he's going to walk all over the rules to cater to his sole ESP economy and give him huge advantages in the game (as bombardment isn't an issue until much, much later than spies).

That rule NEEDS to be reincluded to prevent him from further abusing his unique advantages.

Basically, his proposal permits double moves for spies, but not for the military. I think this is a horrible option. I don't want any double moves, whether in peacetime or no.

Edit, I really don't like the option of parties being able to give each other screenshots. This opens the game up to lots of abuse. As for city/unit gifting, I have to agree with Sommers.

If a team is defeated, any player on that team is permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players are free to share any information from their old team with their new team. This includes any images or screenshots or treaty documents that they "salvaged upon fleeing from the burning rubble of their last city." They may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team. Additionally, defeated players may opt out of the remainder of the game.

No. This rule is bull****. You lose, you're out. Sayonara.

[Dinner]

Naw, allowing refugees keeps people involved in the game.

[OzzyKP]

Naw, allowing refugees keeps people involved in the game.

Agreed.

[Hercules]

Naw, allowing refugees keeps people involved in the game.

I broadly agree. But on the issue of sharing info with your new home. What if you join a civ your previous had never met. I think the civs should have least met to share info: kinda fleeing over the border type scenario.

But generally I find most members of defeated civs are so pissed off as not to join another civ. That said revenge is a driver.