Time to Pick a Leader & Civ

[Robert]

I'm sorry, but Korea plainly sucks. It wins the award for having even a worse starting tech then fishing (mysticism), the UU is mwah.
+10% UBs are very overrated. Of course it's nice, but if you follow a strong strategy, then those +10% either money or science aren't going to make hardly a difference.

Especially if they're not in line with the strategy we decided (early whipping, continueing specialisting).
Same with the Mali. Their UU is nice, indeed against barbarians (there are barbarians in this game?) but then again the preatorians are much better.

The best chance of winning this game is by adapting a great strategy and follow that as much as possible.
If we have the philosophy strategy then Rome is both the defender of that strategy (praetorians) and it even expands on it (UB).

The only competitor imho was the Maya b/c it helps the other part of our strategy (whipping) but that one is now out of the question.

[DNK]

With a +100% to birth rate with a PHI leader, though, the +25% from the UB isn't so strong. It only adds 12.5% to our birthing speed actually. It's basically another "10% UB" at that, and if we go for Pacifism it's even less, like 8%.

With a PHI trait, a UB with a GPP bonus is halved in effect. So, how can this UB compete with others that aren't? Even if the Forum is better than the Seowon usually, in this case it can't be.

Fishing alone doesn't give us river trades - we need Sailing, and without a strong coastal start Sailing is not so useful. If we're delaying the REX, we ought to be able to road out in time anyway, so doubly unimportant. Now, yeah, if we have a coastal start or good coastal spots nearby, Fishing is useful, but Wheel is generally more preferable imo, both for its own improvements and for getting Pottery-Writing a lot quicker.

If we're going 10% v 10% on Mali and Korea, the fact that Mali's comes out sooner and will be more important given the higher maintenance costs puts it ahead. Archery will also be useful if we have larger areas to fog bust, meaning we'll want cheaper fog busters, and saving a bunch of hammers on UU archers rather than axes everywhere (I assume we'll have copper nearby) will be nice. And if we go for a specialist economy, we're likely to be running fairly low on the tech rate, so gold modifiers are all the more useful than a straight commerce or hybrid economy.

I think I'm convinced Mali might be best after all, though it will depend on play as I've said.

Oh, and if we're worried about Hunting/Archery being a bit out of the way, well, how far out of the way is Mysticism compared to Wheel?

[Robert]

If we have a specialist strategy, then we will have many specialists. Thus the +25% will reward us a lot more.
You compare the %25 only with how much more our GP output will be improved relatively. Relatively means nothing.
You also must not forget to stack the +25%.
+10% science/money will never stack, but +25% GP means that the stacked outcome will grow over time.

Of course the UB isn't the best available but I still insist it's better then +% for money/science.
Better UB's are imho buildings that improve hammers or commerce, or give extra initial xps, but those aren't discussed here.

Mysticism is the worst tech, imho. Maybe I didn't phrase it clearly.
Fishing allows trading along rivers, as long as the rivers remain within your cultural border.
Early sailing helps to expand trade to foreign nations a lot. But I wouldn't go too early for it b/c iron working is imho more important (with praetorians)

With mining we have early bronze working (first tech imo), and then we immediately know if we need archers.

Anyway, my reason for Rome is the Praetorian. Not the UB or fishing, though I think that the UB and fishing are decent enough to not take away the praetorian bonus.

[Robert]

Another interesting strategy is building the Great Wall (are there barbarians? If not: no one will build it!)
And then collect extra Great Generals by fooling our enemies into entering our territory..... With preatorians that's extra fun. Early GG may help us a lot militaristically.

[mzprox]

We don't really make a classic specialist economy. That is very dependent on getting the pyramids and I don't think we should risk it. I use the philo trait to get 2-4 specialist out very early and to be able to finish the universities fast for the oxford. After this the +100% bonus is neighible.

We obviously play differently that's why we see the civs differently. I'm not saying mine is the best approach, I tend to gamble in the early game, but the best players usually do and cross their fingers.

So in my strategy with a philo leader is this (in short)
I ignore early religion and wonders
the two key techs are bronzeworking and writing (via pottery or AH) the faster we get here the faster we can start boosting our science.

the best techs for this path are agriculture wheel mining (the first two are being the most expensive) the rest are mostly useless with fishing cvan be good, but map dependent
I usually skip archery and go for axemen (this is risky a bit if we are chariot rushed, so we need chariot ourselves.. lets hope we are not next to RB)

So from this consideration I think the best option is the Ottoman empire: getting several turns advantage in science compared to civs with worse starting techs and +2 happyness is good.

Mali's tech are also not bad, but I rather not rely on archers nd that +10% money when we go on 70-80% science is not that much. Korea is nice but difficult start. IMO we absolutely must win the race for liberlism, get to constitution fast and by then we have to be the tech leaders. No leader is set more on teching than Elizabeth. (we are weak on other sides tough)

[Calanthian]

We don't really make a classic specialist economy. That is very dependent on getting the pyramids and I don't think we should risk it. I use the philo trait to get 2-4 specialist out very early and to be able to finish the universities fast for the oxford. After this the +100% bonus is neighible.

Agreed.

the two key techs are bronzeworking and writing (via pottery or AH) the faster we get here the faster we can start boosting our science.

the best techs for this path are agriculture wheel mining (the first two are being the most expensive) the rest are mostly useless with fishing can be good, but map dependent I usually skip archery and go for axemen (this is risky a bit if we are chariot rushed, so we need chariot ourselves.. lets hope we are not next to RB)

Agreed, especially in this field where almost everybody has mysticism, so early religion chances are small anyway.




But going from this there are two roads to follow: The pure tech road you describe and the trade / tech road I did in Carthage / DoF.

The trade / tech road is an optional one. It only works when we should be coastal: it aims to get Great Lighthouse and Colossus and then we'll be trading massively. After that we return to the pure tech road (the approach described above). Trade/tech combines very good with the FIN trait of Lizzy > coastal squares will generate a lot of coin.

This last route I'd like to keep open, independent of the civ we choose.

PS. All the above is combined with the "delayed REX" and "whipping".

[Calanthian]

One of our main problems will be getting culture in new cities during the REX phase:
we will not have a religion AND we are not creative. So this means Libraries should deliver the culture needed.

[DNK]

Yeah, if we're going with a 80%+ tech rate ultimately, then Mali's UB is next to worthless. More like a 2-3% UB... And if you really dislike archers, then their UU is also pretty lame.

But the Otts' UB? ... How many aqueducts do you two build usually? Really, the Forum looks a lot better even with PHI.

Really, your strat seems perfect for Sumeria: same techs as the Otts with a solid axeman UU (your unit of choice) and a cheap courthouse UB. Why aren't we discussing it also then? We need good courthouses for maintenance costs, so they'll be mass-produced more than usual. We really help the growth curve with that UB regardless of strat, the UU is good regardless of strat, and the techs are good regardless of strat...

So?



RP: I'm not understanding this "stacking", please explain.

[mzprox]

I put Ottomans ahead of Sumeria because +2 happyness is better than cheaper courthouses imo..
Sumeria's UU is just a bit better than axemen.
I can see the point of Rome, we are playing against teams which used to play many multi games where early rushes are quite often, I just know that usually don't prioritize iron working and hardly building swordsman.

I'm surprised btw that someone took the Aztecs.. at least we don't have to debate about it

[DNK]

I guess I don't see the point in happiness as I usually just use obsolete garrison units for that in HRule. By the time we have Maths, we're a hop and a skip away from Calendar and Currency, which will open up the happy cap anyway. It's a safe choice if we're worried about being resource starved at least, and could benefit us well in the later game when we switch out of HR or need that extra +2Health. I mean, if the demographics are any indication, I out-grow basically everyone in the Apolyton and WPC games, and I've never had happy cap issues, plus we're going to need to be pushing out more military than usual due to the nature of this game.

At least their UU is better, but it's so late... The improved axes will help against the dreaded Chariot Rush at least. A weak UU, but still one that has a boost at a critical point in the game for our most-spammed unit.



Going back to the Forum:

Basically, we get 1 free GP for every 8 we produce, compared to 1 free per every 4 without PHI. Pretty huge difference in the quality of the UB (2-3 free GPersons vs 1).

[Ben Kenobi]

Why aren't we discussing it also then?

Who says we aren't? It's on my list I have them behind Rome and Carthage.

[DNK]

Yeah, so how are we making the final decision anyway? We have like 24 hours or so to decide...

[Ben Kenobi]

Put it up for a vote? We're a Democracy game afterall...

Do three polls. First is first preference, second is second preference, third is third preference, and go from there.

If the first preference is taken, go to the second and so on.

[mzprox]

ok, here is how we are doing it, everyone has 3 chips, a 3, 2 and 1 value. you can distribute this among your choices, don't need to use all of them, but one chip for one civ. The civ getting the most points win (if that's taken then the second place will win.) everyone has about 15-20 hours to vote. Votes can be changed, but pelase don't do it for manipulative reasons (ie I ranked Korea at 2 points but changing so my first pick can win etc. )

Example:
mzprox:
3- Zulu
2- Hungary

RP:
3- Russia
2- Hungary
1- Zulu

..etc..

points then summed and we will see the winner.


When considering your pick please note this is a multiplayer game against very good teams who probably play aggressive games. Also our strategy is about science. (so no preferably no civ with hunting, mysticism, an economy UB is prefered and also an early UU)

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, as I said earlier -

Rome (3)
Carthage (2)
Sumeria (1).