Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Sommerswerd]

Game timed out, when i tried to connect. Any help?

Should be fixed now. An auto update was the culprit.

[Greece (DoB)]

Thank you.

[England (DoB)]

Thanks for the explanation sommers. Also just to double check something - if I invoke DMW now it is mandatory peace 10 turns from when the DMW is invoked correct? Assuming this is correct their should be an exception should one not have an opportunity to DMW before the end of a turn. I propose one should be able to make a retroactive DMW from the start of a conflict from the point one 1st logs in and discovers one is at war.

[England (DoB)]

Also a thought - holidays are coming up and folks likely will be traveling. Lots of opportunity for all sides to start conflicts while folks are out of town and do considerable damages. Any thoughts on slowing down the turn timer for this period? Or a global peace agreement? A sensible in game linkage would be a 0AD jubilee.

If not doable game wise individual tribes are welcome to contact England bilaterally. Otherwise, expect angry ships to be a pillaging

[Greece (DoB)]

Game is slow as it is, so it would be best that we do a global peace agreement for these few days during the holidays.

[Sommerswerd]

I think the best way to handle it is for folks who are interested in such a thing to contact your neighbors/enemies individually and ask them for a temporary Peace Treaty rather than trying to ban conflicts globally for the holiday weeks.

Also just to double check something - if I invoke DMW now it is mandatory peace 10 turns from when the DMW is invoked correct?

Yes that's correct.

Assuming this is correct their should be an exception should one not have an opportunity to DMW before the end of a turn.

No, that is incorrect. DMW is not intended to limit wars to exactly 10 turns every time. It is meant as a mercy rule that can be invoked when you discover that you need some mercy.

One problem with what you suggest is that you have to go into the game to verify when the war was declared. Asking for screenshots everytime there is a dispute about when war was declared is not something Im looking forward to. Another thing is if I know (because my ally told me) that someone declared War on me, I might just not login at all, let ten turns pass, then login and demand immediate DMW peace. The attacker had no way of knowing I was going to ask for this, so his units are all out of position for the mandatory peace treaty. This is unfair I think. The attacker needs notice.

Another thing is sometimes players will think they are strong enough to win and wont want DMW right away... they will fight a little and then realize "Uh oh, I need a way out off this" then call DMW. Also the initial Attackers plus all the potential Attackers need some notice of the DMW. We don't want a situation where people are calling stealth DMWs... ie they wait for 9 turns or 12 turns whatever, and then say they demand a DMW peace treaty instantly and immediately because the War has already lasted 10 turns... Better that you have to call it and then wait the 10 turns from when you call it.

As for the "I didn't know War was Declared!" or "He waited until the end of the turn to Declare!" thing... That's why the No-login defense kicks in after the second turn. Generally (unless you're ineligible for the No-login defense), if a guy attacks you and you are out of town or whatever and thus don't notice that you were attacked, he can't capture any of your cities beyond what he captured the first turn he Declared War until you have logged in at least once.

I propose one should be able to make a retroactive DMW from the start of a conflict from the point one 1st logs in and discovers one is at war

As outlined above I do not favor this, but if everybody else wants it I will add it to the rules as an amendment. If there seems to be enough interest in adding this to the rules we can come up with a voting procedure.

[England (DoB)]

Sommers - get what you are saying about the Stealth DMWs and that was the same concern I had in my previous post. My thinking was more along the lines of allowing a retroactive DMW only in the situation where one had not logged in for a few turns and therefore had not discovered one was at war. Your rule change on automatic no-login defense is what prompted this thinking. Also its really easy to tell when a war was declared as it shows up in your game log. So I don't get the point about needing screen shots etc.

In effect I believe the practice I mention is already being used in game. For example in one of my wars with France I used a double turn move when I attacked. There was no way for France to ask for DMW on the 1st turn of war as it only lasted a few mins and France was never logged in during this time. But France's DMW request was for the 10 turns from the start of the war, not 10 turns from when they made the request which at the earliest would have been on the 2nd turn of war. From my turn log of the Roman, Nether, French wars early in the game it looks like most of these were also 10 turn affairs and I doubt that in every one of these cases the defender was able to ask for DMW within one turn of war.

I think there is actually more room for argumentation and hurt feelings under the current system. If I make a posting asking for DMW on turn X it is very hard to prove if I actually have the right to ask for DMW on that turn. Its much more clear cut to just get DMW from when the war started which is easily visible in the game log.

My thinking for the rule change is that one should have a specified period of time (maybe 5 hours) from your 1st login after war is declared to ask for DMW for10 turns from the start of a war. Otherwise you forfeit that right and DMW is for 10 turns from when you request it. Problem wit this rule would be how do you verify when/if someone logs in - but that is the same issue with no-login defense so its nothing new.

Anyhow, I am fine with keeping game as it is or changing. But do think this will make things more clear and less contentious.

[Greece (DoB)]

Civstats seems to be down! Is the game down too?

[Arabia (DoB)]

Civstats seems to be down! Is the game down too?

No game is up.

I just finished my turn.

Civstats is down though....

[France (DoB)]

In effect I believe the practice I mention is already being used in game. For example in one of my wars with France I used a double turn move when I attacked. There was no way for France to ask for DMW on the 1st turn of war as it only lasted a few mins and France was never logged in during this time. But France's DMW request was for the 10 turns from the start of the war, not 10 turns from when they made the request which at the earliest would have been on the 2nd turn of war. From my turn log of the Roman, Nether, French wars early in the game it looks like most of these were also 10 turn affairs and I doubt that in every one of these cases the defender was able to ask for DMW within one turn of war.

This is not true. England has double moved during an attack on France several times however France has only issued the DMW when I have learned of the attack. This has allowed the English to have an extra turn of war. France has specified the turn number of the DMW declaration with each post so that there is no confusion. The post records are there if you want to go back and see.

[Sommerswerd]

I PMed this message to everyone but I thought I should post it here in case there are players I dont know about or who dont check PM often.

I would like to relax the requirement for me to know everyones DoB account password to encourage even more diplo. I sometimes worry that some guys might not be participating as much in diplo because you are worried about me having your password. Thinking about it, I would rather that folks speak freely and me be (greatly ) inconvenienced by a player dropping without leaving his password, than diplo be stiffled because I am being a password nazi.

So everybody, if you want go ahead and change your DoB account passwords to something only you know.

Anyway, at this point I think (hope) that no one else is going to be just dropping out without so much as the courtesy of leaving your password info so I can give it to the new player. With this in mind, I would like to encourage everyone to change your DoB account password to whatever you want. I give you strict reassurance that I have never so much as peeked into anyones mail, but when I think about it, you guys don't know me so it is probably a little nervewracking to not know whether I am reading your mail. So again, everyone is free to make your password secret. Just please, please, please, please, PLEASE make sure you give me the password if you need to leave the game so I can give it to the new player.

Thanks guys, you have been great

[England (DoB)]

This is not true. England has double moved during an attack on France several times however France has only issued the DMW when I have learned of the attack. This has allowed the English to have an extra turn of war. France has specified the turn number of the DMW declaration with each post so that there is no confusion. The post records are there if you want to go back and see.

Just trying to understand the game rules, no need to take offense. In looking back at the event log I see where I made my mistake in judgment. I had forgotten that DMW's really only last 9 turns not a full 10. Recall discussion a while ago as to why this was the case but don't fully recall the logic behind it. Anyhow, a refresher on why DMW is only 9 turns would be appreciated.

And to clear up any confusion about the conflict I am talking about: The conflict I was thinking of was the one where I rushed several triremes right after using my GM to bulb Metal Casting. I used the double move to sink two French galleys. My event log shows this war started in 840BC and peace was entered in 740 BC. France invoked DMW on turn 267 which would be turn 830BC. So peace in 740BC checks out being 9 turns later on turn 740BC.

Again, France no offense was meant. However, the continued indigence at the double turn move is really getting old. I've offered to make arrangements for war declaring which have never been taken up. And your ally Byzantium has used the same tactics on England which I can only presume was a coordinated affair.

[France (DoB)]

I believe the war you are referring to as lasting only 9 turns is the one where you asked to end it one turn earlier because you were not going to be available to accept the mandatory peace treaty on turn 10 and I agreed. As for DMW's, the rule is simple by the end of turn 10 there must be peace (a rule which england has broken several times most recently when they continued their blockade of French territory into turn 11 of the DMW that France declared in response to the japanese war).

My indignation is caused by england continually trying to change the rules so that others cannot use the same tactics against them that they have been employing on others. Yes it is very annoying when someone double move attacks you during a holiday season, just as england did against France. Let me be perfectly clear, england has broken so many agreements with France that I will never trust you to honour any agreements that you may offer. You shall reap what you have sown.

[England (DoB)]

I thought the nine turn war was earlier - anyhow, clarification appreciated. So DMW should be a full 10 turns from when DMW is requested. And yes sorry about the not being able to accept peace the same turn Japan did. I was not online.

And I also agree double moves are annoying. Its also annoying when Byzantium blockades my trade routes while hiding behind your protected borders from the mandatory DMW peace. Am I *****ing and moaning, no. Its a damn clever tactic and one I will consider using the future. Now if you want to work out an agreement so as to avoid such annoying tactics in the future I am quite amendable. For example, an idea could be one turn notice before declaring war. Otherwise I will continue to use them and I expect you and your allies will as well. As to war during the holidays [and seriously Columbus day, not a legit holiday anyway ] give me a time frame where you don't want war declared and I will offer you the same. Should also have some caveats to avoid encouraging 3rd parties from declaring war on our behalf. For example me gifting ships to Celts to use on you, or your continued safe harbor for Byzantium. Not sure best mechanism to make that work though. A Europe or world wide agreement though probably would be best with each party to the agreement offering to declare war on any who break such a pact during the specified time period. I am not in a place in game to offer such an agreement, but Spain.... just saying a time bound peace summit might be in order.

Also don't let all of this get you too excited that I will be gone for a long time this holiday season. I expect to have someone who can sub in for me when out of town, which won't be too long anyway.

Lastly, what is with saying you will never honor any agreements I offer as I have broken your trust so many times? Have we ever made any actual agreements other than temporary treaties to end wars. Yes at the very start of the game we discussed potential peaceful relations, but that got blown to hell with Stone Henge. We have been in conflict ever since. You may also mention my espionage against you, but we never had any actual agreements to not spy on each other. I just informed you I was unilaterally stopping espionage for the time being and will stat up again unless you also stop.

[Sommerswerd]

Gentle reminder, to England and France about mixing IC/ IG discussions with OOC stuff. For example... All these proposals for turn order agreements and holiday truces etc should be over PM or in the story thread. Talk about how dishonorable another Civ is should be in the story thread.

Rules questions/discussions are appropriate for this thread. Thanks guys.