Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[France (DoB)]

I joined this game with the good faith understanding that rule changes would be voted upon by the players as was implied in the rule:

1.3. Both in IC threads/posts and OOC threads/posts players will only use their Anonymous ID. The only exception to the rule is when there's a vote on a game-rule or game-mechanism. Then players will use their normal Apolyton ID to vote.

It was only after the game started that it became evident that rule changes would be done by GM decree without any player vote. I would not have joined this game without the above rule about player voting however upon discovering that the rules were not to be followed as written, I raised the issue discreetly with Sommerswerd and engaged in MANY MONTHS of discussions to try to resolve the issue. There is nothing sudden about my decision and it was taken after exhausting every other possibility to resolve the issue.

My intention was to simply leave the game without any public comment, as per the rules, and it was only at the public behest of a large number of players for me to raise my grievances and the suspension of the game to try to resolve the issue that I decided to make one last attempt. Based upon the resultant vitriol against me, I see that I should not have made the effort.

I will now rectify that mistake. I am done with this game. Please proceed as you deem appropriate.

[WarningU2]

May you have a productive day.

[Caledorn]

I agree to this. I am only asking which country is going to sub, I have no interest in which player. This is information which is crucial in-game.

This game is based on trust, Spain, which is why I was so aggravated by what has happened here to begin with. If you were playing 2 civs, would you abuse that privilege by using them to further your primary nation's goals, or would you do your best at playing the two civs separately to further each nations goal independently?

I have no issues with anyone playing 2 civs because I honestly believe (you may call me naivé if you wish ) that everyone here would do their best at keeping the agendas of those civs separate. This game is not won by military force or any regular manner, but by the collective votes your nation receives from all the other players. As such, even if a player did abuse the privilege and did use the second civ to further the goals of the first one, that would not give him any advantage in getting closer to a victory. Even Germany could win this game if the player who takes over that civ invests the time and effort into writing good diploposts, and thus receives lots of votes from the rest of us.

Now, according to the sub rules, these two paragraphs are relevant:

5.3. Subbing should be done quietly. Do not post on the threads that you are looking for a sub, or that you have found a sub. Conduct you business privately over email or PM etc, so that other players are unaware that a Civ is being subbed.

5.4. If the sub wants to introduce themselves as a new person/leader/ruler, that is OK, but it should be done in-character (IC), so that it is unclear whether this a new person or just a new persona. Try to maintain anonymity as much as possible. Do not say or do anything to give away the fact that your civ has a new player, regardless of whether they are a temporary or permanent sub.


There's nothing in the rules that forbid a player from asking/telling someone privately about subbing, but the rules state that the players should make sure that the subbing process are as invisible as possible. As such, if someone told someone privately that they were subbing for another nation - or if someone asked a nation they believed to be subbed privately if they are a sub and what the main nation is - I believe either would not receive any penalty for asking the question, or by choosing to respond honestly to it. Am I correct in this assumption, Sommerswerd?

I will now rectify that mistake. I am done with this game. Please proceed as you deem appropriate.

You are doing the right and honorable thing in my opinion by stepping down without making further conflict. Thank you, and good luck with your future games.

[Sommerswerd]

if someone told someone privately that they were subbing for another nation - or if someone asked a nation they believed to be subbed privately if they are a sub and what the main nation is - I believe either would not receive any penalty for asking the question, or by choosing to respond honestly to it. Am I correct in this assumption, Sommerswerd?

You are correct. It is against the rules to break anonimity, but it is an honor system. There is no penalty because the rule is desinged to enhance the fun, not be used as a strategic tool against other players.

Some subbing relationships have to be known by some, as it is impossible to get a sub without knowing who they will sub for. The goal is for subs to be as invisible as possible. I can not control if someone chooses to privately reveal what nation they sub for. Indeed, doing so is unavoidable in that player's efforts to find a sub. Whether they choose to privately reveal it for other reasons, strategic or otherwise... I prefer that they don't, because I believe increased anonimity enhances the diplogame experience, but I can't stop them because I don't know about it and in any case there is no penalty.

However, I honestly can't see how I can just up and decide to reveal someone's subbing relationships publicly. That's not fair to them. I appreciate greatly all the great volunteering of all the subs in this game past and present, and I have to preserve the trust of keeping them as invisible as possible as I am supposed to do under the rules.

[Sommerswerd]

Since I was responding to a question I guess now is the time to break my silence. I was staying out of the discussion as I said I would to give plenty of time for us to talk about these issues.

Now that everyone has had a chance to speak, I would like to say that based on the discussion, and based on the fact that we have sufficient subs including a new player, to continue the game with all Civs played, and given that most players (besides France who has resigned) were fine with the reload to undo Germany's resignation, I am leaning to reloading the game as originally announced and continuing the game from there. I plan on reloading the game in approximately 10 hours.

If anyone objects to us re-starting the game in 10 hours please feel free to voice your objections. If there are none, CTT will end at that time and the game will continue. Thanks so much everyone for your patience, participation and great stories. If you have not voted yet on last months diplothread please consider taking the time to do so. I can't wait to do the OP for February!

[Ottomans (DoB)]

If anyone objects to us re-starting the game in 10 hours please feel free to voice your objections. If there are none, CTT will end at that time and the game will continue.

It's alive!!!!!!!



Excellent debate all. Good points Caledorn, and passionately stated!

I was wondering what all that hullaballoo was over the passwords, etc awhile back. Was that related? I never did change mine. I trust Sommers implicitly. That was sort of a starting point for this game anyway.

Now, how do we handle the the matter of the lost civs. I assume we have a player sub for Germany. We now need one for France. Any word on what the Byzantines are doing?

[Sommerswerd]

I was wondering what all that hullaballoo was over the passwords, etc awhile back. Was that related?

I was just concerned that maybe people were worried about me having the password to their PMs and I wanted to put it out there that I would rather risk enduring a little (huge) inconvenience of a lost password, then to have your diplo be constrained because of worries that I would see it.

Also remember everyone that you can use the "Diplomacy" option in civstats to communicate if Apolyton happens to be down or you dont want there to be a PM record of what you are saying because its soooo covert

Now, how do we handle the the matter of the lost civs. I assume we have a player sub for Germany. We now need one for France. Any word on what the Byzantines are doing?

It is all handled. We currently have subs/new players for all Civs that need one. So we are ready to continue as of today.

I encourage all of you to invite your fellow players in other games to join us so we can get permanent players assigned to the subbed Civs as quickly as possible. Thanks again, you guys are a great group

[Greece (DoB)]

Yeah, we continue

[England (DoB)]

NewFoundLand to be settled for a 3rd time! So many alternate realities!

France sorry to see you go as it was a fun rivalry.

When the game starts up how much time will be on the clock? Will it be a full turn or a fraction of a turn. If not a full turn would it be possible to extend the time of the 1st turn back a bit. Besides founding a city I have a few other important things to take care of that turn and missing it would be annoying. I know at least one other civ is in somewhat similar situation.

[Sommerswerd]

If the German save is still there it would be a fraction of a turn. I think it was like 10-11 hrs left.

[Greece (DoB)]

Time to load the game forum is back, lets put the show back on the road guys.

[Japan (DoB)]

Ready when you are.

[Ottomans (DoB)]

Time to load the game forum is back, lets put the show back on the road guys.

[Sommerswerd]

Hey guys I designated a thread over at CFC for us to use to communicate about crashes and such whenever Apolyton happens to go down for an extended time. Just remember that your posts over there are not anonymous so keep all the chatter over there OOC

Here is the link if you care to bookmark it. I will also add this link to the OP of this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=456841

[Sommerswerd]

Game is back up. Loaded from German autosave, right before they resigned. There are 2 hours left on the timer.

Thanks everyone for your patience.