Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Setup Thread]

[Sommerswerd]

Welcome to the Setup Thread for "Domination of Barbarians" -


A new Pitboss Diplo Game that will hopefully start soon in the coming weeks. -Thanks to Robert Plomp for continuing valuable assistance, input and advice

Everyone is invited to play and or participate in the planning of this one. We have a finished Map, fully integrated and tested Mod (still testing out some minor details to be sure of compatibility)

Anyone who wants to participate: just comment to this thread, and invite anyone else you know who might be interested.

While we get a list of players, we can discuss the Map, the Mod, the rules and game settings. I welcome everyone's feedback, criticisms, thought's etc. Even stuff that has been finalized can be changed right up until start time. I have a teensy bit of (simple) Modding experience so we can talk about changes, additions too!

Players:

- Sommerswerd
- Black Knight 427
- 2metraninja
- MNGoldenEagle??
- WarningU2
- Dick76
- Skirnir
- Beta
- Elkad
- OzzyKP
- Rome(DoF)
- damnrunner
- Toni
- Donovan Zoi
- Calanthian
- Exploit
- nabaxo
- Kenshin2

Map
Test Map:

DoB Test Map.rar

The map will be based on the game’s basic 18 Civ Earth Map, with edited resources, edited starts and some minor terrain tweaks. The Map will be made available for all potential players to view prior to the game, and the I welcome any and all suggestions for making the map more fun, more balanced, more playable, more competitive, prettier, etc. However, be careful about offering suggestions based on “realism” or making the game more “realistic.” Realism can be very subjective, and sometimes has little merit in-and-of itself. Instead, focus on things like fun, competitiveness, sustainability and playability. Above all, when making suggestions, keep the following goals in mind:

--Map Goals
1. Colonization – One of the primary goals of this map is to encourage players to Colonize other parts of the map and compete for colonization opportunities, rather than just focusing on the land around their capitals. Note: Keep this in mind when making suggestions. “Portugal needs more space” is not helpful, because giving them more space defeats the goal of encouraging them to Colonize other areas.
2. Dynamic Capitals and Core locations – A related goal of the Map is to encourage players to move their capitals at some point, so that they can re-emerge as the “Vietnamese” or the “Brazilians” or “Canadians” or “South Africans” etc. Civs are encouraged to trade cities with each other to consolidate control of regions.
3. Corporate Dominance – A major goal of this game is to really pump the Volume up on the value of Corporations. In this game, the arrival of Corporations will be a Game changer. Getting the Corporations in your cities (even if you don’t control them) will potentially swing the game in your favor.
4. Strong!! Barbarians to limit Rapid Expansion- Since some civs are boxed in, there is a check on REX in the form of Deity level, Raging Barbarians. This setting is vital for this Map to work properly. (It's called "Domination of Barbarians" afterall)

UPDATE: Rules have been finalized and moved to the Organization Thread

[Sommerswerd]

Starting locations

Most Civs begin densely packed in Europe and the Middle East, with the Americas, Caribbean, Africa, Australia, India, Indo-China, Polynesia, and most of Asia left open for colonization. England and Celts also start with their own islands in Europe. China starts off alone in East Asia, and Japan, starts on the Japanese island. Players that want to try to be mostly left alone in their own part of the world to face a different kind of challenge might choose Japan, China, England, Celts, Vikings, Persia, Russia or Arabia.

Since space will be so tight in mainland Europe, settling in place is recommended, but not required. There will probably be very little room to move your starting location, and moving your start might result in missing your opportunity to settle, and having to walk to a totally different area of the Map, possibly being forced to declare war to cross territory. Also, moving away from the Coast to settle your first city inland will destroy your ability to set sail to found colonies, and possibly cripple you for the rest of the game. Accordingly, Spain, Portugal and France are STRONGLY encouraged to settle in place.

Once you have settled, you should resist any attempt by your neighbors to cross your land or your waters. Try to keep them boxed in to limit their expansion. On the flip side, you should not allow your neighbors to box you in. If necessary, be ready to declare war and cross their land without an Open Border agreement, because if you don’t found colonies you will fall hopelessly behind.

The Civs & Leaders - Note that these are the ones assigned in the Map (but they can be changed)

France - Louis (IND, CRE)
Spain - Isabella (EXP, SPI)
Portugal - (IMP, EXP)
Netherlands - Willem (FIN, CRE)
Rome - Augustus (IND, IMP)
Greece - Pericles (PHI, CRE)
Germany - Bismarck (IND, EXP)
Ottomans - Suleiman (PHI, IMP)
Holy Rome - (IMP, PRO)
Russia - Catherine (CRE, IMP)
Persia - Darius (FIN, ORG)
Byzantines - Justinian (IMP, SPI)
China - Qin Shi Huang (IND, PRO)
Arabia - Saladin (SPI, PRO)
Viking - Ragnar (FIN, AGG)
Japan - Tokugawa (AGG, PRO)
England - Elizabeth (FIN, PHI)
Celts - Brennus (SPI, CHA)

There will be 6 basic challenges in the early game depending on starting locations. The Tier system from DoE will be used for choosing Civs:

Tier 1 – These 'best' few are good at Diplogaming, good at Pitboss, MP, PBEM etc, and comfortable with writing Treaties, Brinksmanship, trading Cities, Unit upgrade contracts etc. Players in this tier are familiar with running CE, SE, EE or WE/SSE economies. These players are experienced with the use of religion, culture, and espionage to wage different forms of 'Cold' War. These players can easily handle Barbarians on the 'Raging' setting. Tier 1 players are expecting to win the game, and capable of doing well in SP on Emperor difficulty level and above.
Tier 2 – This is for people who have played multiple diplogames, and are very experienced playing MP, Pitboss, or PBEM etc. This tier is for players who consider their skill level above average, are expecting to be a Superpower, with a good chance to win the game. Players in this tier generally play SP on Monarch difficulty level or above.
Tier 3 – This is for people who have played a diplogame before, and are experienced playing MP, Pitboss, or PBEM etc. This tier is for players who consider their skill level average or above, are expecting to do well, maybe even be a Major Nation at the end and want to go for the win. Players in this tier would generally not play SP below Prince or Monarch difficulty level.
Tier 4 – This is for people who have a little experience playing MP, Pitboss, PBEM etc. This tier is for players who consider their skill level around average, have no idea how well they might do, and plan to try their best and see what happens. Players in this tier would generally play SP at Noble or Prince difficulty level.
Tier 5 – This is for people who are relatively new to MP, Pitboss, PBEM etc. This tier is for players who consider their skill level below average, are not expecting to do well, and just want to get some experience playing against better players. Players in this tier would not play SP above Noble difficulty level.
Tier 6 – This is for people who are very new to MP, Pitboss, PBEM etc. This tier is for players who consider their skill level far below average, are expecting to do poorly, and just want to participate, observe and learn from the better players. Players in this tier would not play SP above Warlord difficulty level.

1. Tier 1 - Western Europe Civs (France, Spain, Portugal) - These Civs will find themselves totally boxed in by neighbors, pressed by culture and squeezed for space. Those Civs are expected to try to quickly extend their empire by founding remote colonies. These Civs have no room to expand safely, and will be competing, fighting Barbarians and possibly even Warring for colonial holdings almost immediately. The expectation is that at least one of these Civs will move their capital, and become a regional power in another part of the world.
2. Tier 2 - Peninsular Europe Civs (Netherlands, Rome, Greece) - These Civs will also be pressed by culture and squeezed for space, however, these Civs will have a small amount of room to expand locally, if they move quickly. These Civs are expected to move quickly to take the open land or islands readily available to them, and take to the sea if necessary to grab those nearby viable spots before their neighbors do. Once that is done, they must look to establish more remote colonies. The expectation is that some, if not most of the original European Civs will eventually move their capitals, either by necessity or choice, and emerge as the regional powers elsewhere in the world.
3. Tier 3 - Eastern Europe Civs (Germany, Ottomans, Holy Rome) - These Civs are blocked out of the West by neighbors, and will also be pressed by culture and squeezed for space. However, these Civs have a little room to found cities in the East if they move quickly. These Civs can choose to try rapid colonial expansion, or try to quickly expand into the frontier first, and found more remote colonies later.
4. Tier 4 - Frontier Civs (Russia, Persia, Byzantines) – The Civs on the European, African and Asian frontier will have the dubious task of facing off against the relentless Barbarian attacks. Expansion will be very tough, as you will need to produce substantial soldiers to protect your homelands from being pillaged, while simultaneously producing equally large garrisons to escort settlers to new settlements. Focus on military, there is plenty of land available to you, but you have to be strong enough to take it and hold it. Keep an eye on your back door though, as your older cities will be an easy, irresistible target for your secure European neighbors.
5. Tier 5 - Isolated Civs (China, Arabia and Vikings) – China stands alone, all the way on the far Eastern side of Asia. Arabia and Vikings are alone on the Arabian and Scandinavian Peninsulas. As isolated mainland Civs, China, Arabia and Vikings will be under constant, relentless, overwhelming attack from barbs. China will face attack from all directions, while Arabia will be protected on one side by the Red sea. For China, there will be no sides that are covered by the ocean or by other Civs. The challenge then, is to fight off the barbarian hordes, but simultaneously expand into more and better lands before the Europeans get there and take it all.
6. Tier 6 - Island Civs (Japan, England and Celts) – With small islands to themselves, they will have an easy time expanding initially, but will find it very hard after that. The expectation is that they will turtle inside their islands, and try to build super cities, or use their brief advantage to focus on establishing large Colonies and rebase their empires on other continents. If you want to play as a peaceful Wonder Builder, these are probably the Civs to pick. England and Celts have a more complicated go of it because they are also in Europe. So they have far less space, but more trading partners. As Japan, the name of the game is to exploit your advantage and become well established before the more militarily advanced Europeans arrive.

[Sommerswerd]

Resources

There will be some themes with the resources on this map:
1. Huge amounts of resources, particularly the Corporation resources– To make Corporations extremely important, indispensable, even potentially unbalancing, there will be large amounts of Stone, Seafood, Rice, Corn, Wheat, Sugar, Gold, Silver, Gems, Iron and Copper
2. An abundance of Seafood – To make navies more important, and to facilitate larger cities, especially to make the starting locations more viable for slaving and commerce.
3. Heavy resource concentration in particular areas – to facilitate resource Monopolies and to encourage Colonization and trade. Certain resources will be heavily concentrated in some areas, while completely absent from others. Spread out your cities or you will be missing out on a lot of the resources.
4. Heavily resourced Europe, to help balance the limited space and make each capital viable for the maximum amount of time.
5. Plentiful early-game strategic resources – To make sure all the Europeans can defend themselves from each other while they try to found colonies abroad.
6. Extremely limited late-game strategic resources – To encourage competiveness over resources and Corporations. For example, there is almost no Aluminum on the Map, so to build Aluminum units, like Jet fighters, you will need the Aluminum Corporation and Coal, or you will have to acquire them from a Civ who has Aluminum. Also, to encourage arms trading and trade alliances / agreements / profiteering

Mods

1. Next War - to extend the importance of late game teching,
2. No Score – To discourage score-based animosity, and MP style jockeying for high score, to encouraging storytelling and roleplay
3. Fast (double) Ship Movement in Ocean– swift exploration and swift Colonization and enhance the importance of Navies
4. Privateers can Carry units (2 cargo), upgrades to Transport
5. ‘Pirate’ Explorer Unit- Upgrades to Rifleman
   1. Hides Nationality (like Privateer)
   2. Can attack/capture units and cities, but not pillage.
      1. This unit will be very effective as a worker stealer (like a Triangle-Trade era slaver). Of course the stolen Workers will give away the identity of the Nation who owns the Explorer, but it allows a Civ to steal workers or kill weak/wounded units without declaring War. The unit can also be useful to stall a Civ from improving certain tiles. This unit will be a great threat against unguarded workers on the coast. ** Need to test what happens when stealing from civs who you don’t have OB with… Are workers insta-teleported?
6. Normal Submarine Holds Spies (1 cargo), Attack Sub carries Missiles, Nukes etc. (3 cargo) – This is to enhance Early Modern era Espionage as that is when most of the Espionage buildings become available.
7. ICBM requires Uranium & Aluminum and Hammer cost increased to 750 from 500 – To distinguish them more from Tactical Nukes
8. Gunships can cross Mountains
9. Assault Mech cost increased to 1000 from 450, removed restriction on number you can build
10. Dreadnought can cross Mountains, cost increased to 2000 from 500, removed restriction on the number you can build

Game Settings

Raging Barbarians – This is very important to note, especially for those who have not played this setting before. Raging Barbs can be VERY tough if you are not careful, and they will occasionally capture your cities. Civs on the interior of Europe that are surrounded have nothing to fear from Barbs, but they are also boxed in. By contrast, those on the outsides have plenty of room to expand, but will be under CONSTANT attack, from wave after relentless wave of Barbarians. In some ways, it will be harder for you to expand than for the civs that are seemingly boxed in. Please be sure to have a good garrison to defend your frontier cities or they will be razed by the barbs. You must prioritize the military techs that you would if you were expecting a rush, because you WILL be rushed by the barbs… Count on it.

Deity AI(Aggressive AI, Random Personalities) – This will make the Barbs especially tough, which is needed as a check on the civs that start on the frontier to prevent them from expanding too rapidly. This is also so that just in case a Civ is temporarily resigned to AI, they remain a formidable opponent.
Epic/Marathon setting – This will enhance the balancing effect of the Raging Barbarians, as well as facilitate Arms trading and upgrading.

[2metraninja]

I might join if we have full diplo - anonymous accounts and regular story/attitude votes.

Also a concern is that the lower tiers can have difficult time fending off the deity rage barbarians. Not to mention if some of the tier 1 players decide to attack those lower tier players too

[Sommerswerd]

I might join if we have full diplo - anonymous accounts and regular story/attitude votes.

Well there is definitely going to be full diplo. I wouldn't be happy without a nice full Diplogame... Ah how I miss those DoE days We will have anonymous accounts for sure, as well as monthly votes. Plus this time, we will have the No Score Mod (actually I already installed it to the Map and it is working) so no more in-game score... Only the diploscore will matter.

Also a concern is that the lower tiers can have difficult time fending off the deity rage barbarians.

Yes they are tough b@stards, but it is needed to keep those with all the free land from just expanding at will. I am now in the process of testing the Map full to make sure that all the starts are playable and survivable, even against the Nasty, nasty barbs. So far, even the low Tiers will be fine as long as they keep building Warriors and then Archers, they have nothing to fear from the Barbs, it just slows them down so they can't over-expand. Only if someone tries to Build Pyramids or Monastery instead of Warriors will he suffer the loss of his Capital to barbs.

Not to mention if some of the tier 1 players decide to attack those lower tier players too

Ah, but you have not yet seen the rules! I have been working on them to make them very short and clear. I just sent a new revised version of them today to RP for him to take another look.

Once they are all finished I will post them, but enough to say that Capitals will be immune to capture at the beginning, so there is no danger of the higher Tier players preying on the lower. If I were you, I would be worried that it will be the other way around. I have been testing and testing to make sure the Map has good balance. I will post the Map soon so you can see it for yourself.

[MNGoldenEagle]

Considering my experience level I'm probably a tier 4/5. It definitely sounds interesting, but I'm not sure how easy it would be playing two different diplogames simultaneously, especially if I'm going to do the story threads justice. Is two usually manageable?

[Black Knight 427]

Looks interesting count me in

[St Jon]

Earth Maps are always desperately over-crowded at the best of times and to pack 15 players into such a tiny area will be a nightmare.

As 2metraninja says the Tier 3/4 frontier states will have their work cut out just to survive against Deity Barbs still less expand. When you add on being unable to even police their western borders without being on a full scale war economy from the start Byzantium and Russia lose all appeal. China becomes a poison chalice in the extreme as well.

Thank you for your kind invitation but this does not sound like my kind of game at all.

[Black Knight 427]

Considering my experience level I'm probably a tier 4/5. It definitely sounds interesting, but I'm not sure how easy it would be playing two different diplogames simultaneously, especially if I'm going to do the story threads justice. Is two usually manageable?

Two is manageable anymore is too much to keep track of.

[Sommerswerd]

@ Black Knight 427

Considering my experience level I'm probably a tier 4/5. It definitely sounds interesting, but I'm not sure how easy it would be playing two different diplogames simultaneously, especially if I'm going to do the story threads justice. Is two usually manageable?

Yes. What I find (currently playing 3 pitbosses, hosting 1) is that playing more than one pitboss at a time is optimal. The reason is, that there will always be some downtime where not much is going on in one and it feels a little boring. But its far less likely that both will be boring at the same time

The other thing is that when you only play one at a time, there are times where you get restless, wanting to play, but you already played your turn so theres nothing to play. With two, or even three, you can stagger them, play one on one day and another the next, or play at different times, etc. Four gets to be a little challenging at times, and Five gets downright overwhelming. The most I can remember ever playing at once was 5, and that was too much TBH. Two is a good number.

As far as stories go, your creative side (you must be creative if Diplogames interest you) will be better served with two different storylines to work with, believe me. You can spend as much time as you like, plus your stories give others things to write about and vice versa.

Earth Maps are always desperately over-crowded at the best of times and to pack 15 players into such a tiny area will be a nightmare.

Well you have to see the map, its really only 6 or 7 civs that are packed in, and those are supposed to be the Tier 1 and 2, ie the best players so I am betting that they can manage. But your general point is true. Again though, that really is the point of this map, for the top tier guys to be packed in with no room to expand except by setting sail for distant shores, or treking into Asia or Africa etc.

But for players who don't want to be so packed in, there are plenty of more isolated civs who have plenty of room to expand, they just have to build some Archers to defend against the Barbs. And if even that seems daunting, there are even the island civs which will probably never see a Barb before they are well established and strong enough to squash them. That's the idea, to have some versatile options for different skill levels, different interests etc.

As 2metraninja says the Tier 3/4 frontier states will have their work cut out just to survive against Deity Barbs still less expand.

Really, it just boils down to slower expansion. You have to start out with Warriors, get Archery and make sure every settler/city has at least an Archer and a Warrior or two (on flatland) or 3 Warriors guarding it (on hills). That just means expansion is slower than we're used to, not impossible. I'm playtesting extensively to make sure all the starts were not just survivable, but playable. When I originally made the map I assumed that the remote starts would be the higher difficulty with the raging barbs, but after testing it, I realized that the ones facing the barbs have the easier path to expansion.

When you add on being unable to even police their western borders without being on a full scale war economy from the start Byzantium and Russia lose all appeal.

I mentioned this in response to 2metra already, but policing your Capital in the West is a non-issue under the rules, at least in the early stages of the game. It really won't be as "poison" as you think, but I can appreciate your impression

Thanks so much for taking the time to comment St. Jon. I sure your concerns will be shared by others so it was great to get a chance to repond to some of those concerns, if not to change your mind, at least to help others considering the game.

[WarningU2]

I would like to participate.... it has been too long waiting for pitboss in CIV5. Thanks for organizing.

[Dick76]

It looks very exciting, I would like to be part of it. regards

[DNK]

Sorry, but not interested in playing 2 diplogames based on the same map concurrently. Also not interested in reviving the double ship movement approach. I may sub later on, as I'm sure there will be openings in time, but I have enough games for now even with DoF ending shortly.

[Carthage (DoF)]

I would give tier 4 and 5 civs 2 archers in the beginning. And Tier 3 one archer.
Place their capital and give them city walls.

Otherwise I suspect a couple will go down against the barbs.

[Skírnir]

I could be interested, if the turn timer is at least 48 hours. I think I qualify for tier 3, perhaps 2 if it becomes too crowded.