Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Russia (DoE)]

- You offered me indeed 350gpt for 10 turns + 100gpt for 20 turns instead of losing Ekron. I then choose to give Ekron. Giving up Ekron was then not accepted. I had to both give up Ekron AND pay the money. So if there was bargaining then it was only increasing what I had to pay. Your failure is that you are not trying to understand Israel first.

You are interpreting here. The refusal of Turkey to take Erkon for peace with them because they just wanted quiet invisible deal. You made it a propaganda again and then you asked me to plead on your behalf with the Turks. WTF? How I could turn against the will of my allies to protect you, who betrayed them? Then you said you just want a peace and are looking for lasting friendship. Then the Turks told me you are secretly moving catapults to Neandor to upgrade. When asked, you told me you dont believe us and you want to be sure of your safety. Then you said you want to make us believe you once again. And that you want so strong to prove me your friendship, but you have nothing to give to me right now. Then I said I will have to think about some way of lasting peace between you and Turkey, as you called them Bloodthirsty barbarians, who will come and come to hurt you. I made quite diplomatic effort (15 PMs sent and more than 20 received in 3 days to and from Turkey) to make them not attack you anymore. They did not believed you. I came to this way of ensuring your word and compensating Turkey for they not hating you any more. I told you the deal and you said you preffer to lose Erkon. But Erkon was not anymore issue.

Just then I realised, that you made me argue with my own ally on your behalf and I am not gaining anything from this and I still have to keep army to watch out for you when you decide to make war with Turkey again - you told me you will never give up the hope for Jerusalem (btw, you did said me this "For Jerusalem" and I though to myself then - the poor Israeli have lost his mind - what Jerusalem - Jerusalem is gone for 2000 years now. Maybe he had in mind Bethleem - I am thinking of Bethleem as the Jerusalem of this game. And this "For Jerusalem" came right after we (you and me) discussed how we will act against the French. So then I though - he was reffering for his old hate with France - they stole land from the Africans and they made war centuries ago.)

So I decided you are disgusted from France and Neandor throwing you away and want to redeem yourself to us. And I told you the price. Without hate, without any unnesessary bad feelings.

[Russia (DoE)]

- The Mali made the worst backstab b/c they attacked just at the moment that I was already in huge problems. It was an attack purely based on opportunism to take advantage of our problem.

Maybe my English isnt good enough or in my native language "back-stabbing" have slightly different meaning, but I did not agreed at first. Now when you explain it that way - to stab someone in the back who is facing somewhere else is the literate meaning. In my language backstabber=traitor, so you have to have trust in someone and he to betray your trust so he to be back-stabber. Anyway, I got your point.

[Russia (DoE)]

- The question why England is important doesn't really matter. It still is important. For the record: I do consider what happened to the English over the top as well.

No, it does matter. It absolutely does matter. You are in the situation you are in now, not because you are weak and backward, you are here because of your actions, bluffing and overplaying. I asked you to prove me you really, really do want to befriend me. The money was a sign of good will. Once I feel you are my friend - fo you really think I will refuse you some money if you need them for teching? Do you think giving you some money is something big for me, after I wage hell of a war just because I do believe in that old-fashioned honor thing? In fact, when the Vikings attacked England, our deal was over - and never got re-signed. I was absolutely ok to say - sorry, but we are going to suffer if we decide to support you against the most powerful and advanced nation in the world. No, I did not said that. Neither Turkey did that. So, do you believe those money was something big for me?

[Israel (DoE)]

Negotiations were always very hard b/c I was always accused of being untrustable.
Unfortunately the Israelian storyline and roleplaying was never understand.

That's not a problem. What happens IC is IC. All your excuses in your last post are valid b/c they're IC reasons and those are always valid.
Unfortunately I was dealing with 2 very very strong paranoid people that didn't understand Israel at all and explained everything negatively. Again: that is valid and acceptable.
In the end it doesn't change the fact that Israel is totally cripled now, gang banged by the Russians, the Turks and the Mali. (And the Arabs).

Unfortunately you only wanted to see Israel as an untrustworthy civilization player. Never in the role it was playing.
If you would have offered Jerusalem in exchange of all of Israel I would have accepted most probably (though I never wanted to put it on the table myself)

Israel was dealt with as one deals with a nation in a ordinary MP game, not as a role playing civ that tells a story.
Neither when Jerusalem was razed, nor now.

[Russia (DoE)]

- You failed to answer my questions: I did offer you very reasonable peace terms, not in the last place Bethlehem. You choose to destruct Israel anyway.

Until you start to act like someone, who truly wants to show good will and be spared, I cant see how we can have peace. Your offer was not reasonable even to yourself - why should you give me Bethlehem, which makes about 100 GPT for eternity which will make me a 6000 in 60 turns, but you will not accept to give me 6000 gold in the next 30 turns? 30 turns delay of giving 3000 gold? But still losing your best city after your capitol? No way. You did not meant this to last. You were offering me this city between you and the French only to lure my armies there and smash them in the desert once again. You even did not offerd it to me - you offered it to the Turks. And now you are looking for sympathy - see the evil Russians they are pure vandals and heartless barbarians. No we are not heartless. But we are not brainless too.

[Israel (DoE)]

Russia, you only reason from your own point of view.
You never place yourself into Israel's shoes. You have all those reasons of why I should have paid you the money. But those are all from your own POV.

I had reasons why I thought that Russia would never invade Israel with the Turks. Apparently I was wrong.
Negotiating and diploing means that you try to understand your enemy. You still think that from my POV it would have been better if....
Well to start with, when we were negotiating I had no idea that both Russia AND Mali would invade me as well. I thought it would be just the Turks.

[Russia (DoE)]

How the hell is that possible? I moved it away 2 tiles from Tel Aviv...did the cultural borders vanish with the fall of Tel Aviv so that you could move over the roads to my units?

The culture - it makes gap from the capture. Oh, I just remember the infamous words of Maximus in Gladiator: "The frost, it sometimes makes the blade stick." Oh, what a movie...

And it is not 50% of your army its about 15-20%, stop making drama. Even not 50% of your canons - you got extremely lucky twice at 95% and 96% and thats why you still have cannons at all, despite heavily damaged.

[Israel (DoE)]

You are thinking from a gamer POV, not from a character point of view.

Why do you expect Israel suddenly wanting to be friends with Russia/Turkey after everything that happened?
In no diplo-war you can expect your enemy to turn into your friend if they have to give things up to become you friend.
If you want to become friends then end the war without conditions. (like how Turkey and me made peace initially, that was a step into the right direction).

It makes no sense to make peace with a lot of demands and then think that the other party will not want to get back at you.
Of course I would try to get back Bethlehem later, like I still want to get back Jerusalem.
And of course I would always have wanted to get back Ekron after I offered it. And when I gave Sidon to the Mali it was only with the thought in mind that I would try to get it back later. What else do you expect?

And that's why we could not make peace. You did not only want to make me pay, you also wanted me to accept that I had to pay and would never get it back.
That's just silly.
All you can do is accept payments and defend what you got. (= defend Bethlehem with huge stacks).
If you want ensure peace then don't ask huge terms.

And why I prefer to give up Bethlehem above paying 6000 gold? (apart from the hope to regain control over Bethlehem later)
1. I could immediately go on as an independant nation. All debts are paid.
2. when I refused the 6000 gold I didn't know yet that the Mali and the Russians would also invade me. Russia didn't declare war after our first attack on Turkey. How could I know?

rule of thumb:
- friendship = giving back everything the other civ lost (end WW2)
- making demands and especially territorial demands: secure your bordres b/c they will attack you again one day. (end WW1)

[Israel (DoE)]

The culture - it makes gap from the capture. Oh, I just remember the infamous words of Maximus in Gladiator: "The frost, it sometimes makes the blade stick." Oh, what a movie...

And it is not 50% of your army its about 15-20%, stop making drama. Even not 50% of your canons - you got extremely lucky twice at 95% and 96% and thats why you still have cannons at all, despite heavily damaged.

Not drama, just responding to what I understood from what you said.
I'm glad it's not that bad.
My fault that I didn't took the gap in mind....

Weird, in SP games it doesn't work like that I think...

[Russia (DoE)]

Unfortunately I was dealing with 2 very very strong paranoid people that didn't understand Israel at all and explained everything negatively.

Nope, you were dealing with one person, who I though very, very paranoid and angry at you and one person, who was looking at the big picture and wanted this issue settled as fast and problemless as possible. But your whole "I want to be your friend, those cowards have left me, I do want to give you something, because I feel guilt" was as you said blabla. While you were talking to me, at the same time you were moving catapults to Neandor. What you want - to make myself stupid only to believe you? And when I told you what you can make to vanish my doubts, you did not did it. What else - ok, I remember how the Israeli were servile to the Arabs and the Turks and then challenged them with Jerusalem. You made a gamble. Twice. One you won. And once you lost. You lost Jerusalem. And since then you are trying to get it back. But this tactics of doubling the bet each time and stop when you win once, wont work, just like in the real world

[Russia (DoE)]

Weird, in SP games it doesn't work like that I think...

I think it gaps exactly the same way, but might be wrong.

[Russia (DoE)]

If you would have offered Jerusalem in exchange of all of Israel I would have accepted most probably (though I never wanted to put it on the table myself)

Oh, stop it - I offered it twice to you, but then you had the French army to back your claims, so you decided to bet on them. And you lost again. Then I supposed that once we are friends again I will plead to the Turks and we will find a way to compensate them. Instead of taking my offer, you decided to bet on the Neanderthal forged steel cannon barrels and you lost again.

We, the Slavs have another saying "Who has no luck in the gambling, have a lot of luck in the love." You or Rabbi must be very, very lucky man whn it comes to love

[Russia (DoE)]

Russia, you only reason from your own point of view.
You never place yourself into Israel's shoes. You have all those reasons of why I should have paid you the money. But those are all from your own POV.

I had reasons why I thought that Russia would never invade Israel with the Turks. Apparently I was wrong.
Negotiating and diploing means that you try to understand your enemy. You still think that from my POV it would have been better if....
Well to start with, when we were negotiating I had no idea that both Russia AND Mali would invade me as well. I thought it would be just the Turks.

Here you sound more logical to me and I agree with what you say. But then again - what was your reasons you not to think I will attack you? If you never know I dont think of you as a friend anymore, then you are failing to see the things from my POV. And also dont read carefully the stories.

And as I just cant stop myself - to follow your mysterious (or not so much mysterious) way of saying the things - I told you not once, but 3 or 4 times, that your refusal will lead to utter destruction of Israel, I told you you are facing powers beyond your imagination... did I not said this to you? Why you did not get me correct? How Russia is going to be a world power and a banner for the half world if someone can play me for a fool and betrays me, and messes with my plans and refuses and threatens me repetitively? How you think this can happen? Why would Christian Russia have so much sentiments about Israel, who is laughing at our beliefs and making money from them? How is the mighty Christian Russia, protector of the faith, contributed 1 Pope, will look at Israel, who keeps insulting their Savior Jesus Christ, claiming he did not resurected, but was killed by Turkish soldiers outside of Jerusalem when it was captured? I understand that politics sometimes are more important than religion and since I respect Arabia's religion and allowed them to spread it in Russia and Vikings and even helped them, they were grateful to Russia. But what can Russia feels about you when you are infidels, traitors and friend of our enemies? Um? And yet I offered you my friendship many times.

Oh, and dont say that Arabia is at war with you - they are not at war with anyone.

Question for you: why did you not accept Bethlehem.
I think that from your IC POV it should be an excellent gain from war, you being this christian nation.
So why was it not a good offer, IC?

I think I answered this already.

[Russia (DoE)]

- friendship = giving back everything the other civ lost (end WW2)

Oh, my - who told you this propaganda? Germany was divided in two. Also they lost territories - Kaliningrad and so on - I dont know them all.

And ALL the losing countries have paid huge amounts of money:

War reparations at 1938 prices:

* USD 360,000,000 from Italy:
o USD 125,000,000 to Yugoslavia;
o USD 105,000,000 to Greece;
o USD 100,000,000 to the Soviet Union;
o USD 25,000,000 to Ethiopia;
o USD 5,000,000 to Albania.
* USD 300,000,000 from Finland to the Soviet Union;
* USD 300,000,000 from Hungary:
o USD 200,000,000 to the Soviet Union;
o USD 100,000,000 to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
* USD 300,000,000 from Romania to the Soviet Union;
* USD 70,000,000 from Bulgaria:
o USD 45,000,000 to Greece;
o USD 25,000,000 to Yugoslavia.

[Russia (DoE)]

- friendship = giving back everything the other civ lost

Also, my Catherine told in her interview what she thinks it must to be done. Israel will get its cities which Russia takes back once Rabbi is handled to Russia.