Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Russia (DoE)]

Finished my turn, but did not paused for France. 4 hours on the clock. Can you please confirm you can get it in 4 hours or if not - say when you will be able to play and I will pause (and most probably unpause when you need it) for you.

[England (DoE)]

I certainly had considered calling in the measured war rule myself. Half my economy evaporated when England was taken. Losing London was quite crippling. The enemy never made reasonable peace offers so the war continues. Of course this war has continued to spiral out of control and now Israel is suffering from it.

I have been out of commission for a while, but I do urge my allies to make a reasonable peace with Israel and return their capitol to them. Of course Israel has to agree to some deal that gives Russia/Ottomans/Mali true peace of mind and security. I don't blame them at all for being hesitant to trust a back stabber.

[Israel (DoE)]

No need for cold turkey time. Like I said, I'm completely accepting the situation as it is and I'm willing to continue and hope that the game will just continue like it is being played right now.

You ask what choice you have if I do not accept your last offer.
Your last offer was outragious, it's a bummer that you don't see that. And that's maybe where the problem is. Neither Turkey nor Russia is able to place yourself into my shoes. Paying 100% of my full economy (all cities on commerce) to Turkey and then 100gpt to Russia for 20 turns effectively means that my economy is totally idle for 20 turns. After 20 turns I'm completely behind everything.

You could also have accepted my offer to hand over Bethlehem.
It was quite a huge thing I offered. The holy city of a huge world religion which shrine alone generates 70gpt, on the border of my empire so that it wouldn't be culturally destroyed.
But taking my capital is so terrible, especially if you consider that Israel doesn't really have any other good city.

The problem is that you ask terribly much and do not want to accept anything else.
It is not Israel that wasn't willing to compromise. I seriously thought that my offer was good enough.
It made sense IC as well, why would Russia not want to get the holy city of christianity.

I can use the measured war rule but I don't want to.
I prefer to continue to play this way now. I dislike it to force my enemies by ooc votes. I can handle it very well, though I do have a need to express this though. I may find some fun in trying to destroy your stack now.

[Israel (DoE)]

I don't blame them at all for being hesitant to trust a back stabber.

The backstabber thing makes sense IC, but it doesn't ooc.
Israel isn't a backstabbing nation. It has always had an eternal vendetta with the Turks since the razing of Jerusalem. Most of my story posts were about how we hate the Turks and how we long for Jerusalem. I was surprised when the Turks approached me to allie with them. I was like: WTF? do you not know how much we hate you? Then I ended many of my messages to Turkey and Russia with "For Jerusalem!" and then they still did not get it.

Israel did not backstab the turks, we just continued our eternal vendetta against them trying to get Jerusalem. Which would only be a response to the terrible betrayal of the Turks in the early game. If we backstabbed then we only counter-backstabbed.
We were completely trustworthy towards the French (We got an offer from the Russians to get Jerusalem if we would backstab the French, which I did not accept b/c of not willing to betray the French).

Of course what we did to the Turks was a very very evil action. But it was not unepected and it was not out of the blue. The Israelian hate to the Turks was the core of my story. Even the turn before I talked with Russia and ended with: "For Jerusalem", Russia then answered with: "for Jerusalem, hehe". I'm sure that they didn't got it.

The most terrible backstab in this game came from Mali, btw.
No offense, civs are allowed to backstab.
But I get the idea that many players ooc think: "Israel deserves this b/c they are terrible backstabbers"
Those players do not really understand what's going on and believe the IC propaganda (good work Turkey) too much in an ooc way.

[England (DoE)]

No need for cold turkey time. Like I said, I'm completely accepting the situation as it is and I'm willing to continue and hope that the game will just continue like it is being played right now.

You ask what choice you have if I do not accept your last offer.
Your last offer was outragious, it's a bummer that you don't see that. And that's maybe where the problem is. Neither Turkey nor Russia is able to place yourself into my shoes. Paying 100% of my full economy (all cities on commerce) to Turkey and then 100gpt to Russia for 20 turns effectively means that my economy is totally idle for 20 turns. After 20 turns I'm completely behind everything.

That doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. Considering the pain this war has brought so far, that doesn't sound bad at all. England has not only lost half our economy with the loss of London, Glasgow, York & Plymouth, but in order to defend our remaining cities we have gone mostly gold for at least 20 turns. And we still don't have peace (or our capitol) At least you'd have peace and the opportunity to rebuild after their gold demands expire. Heck, the Ottomans, as they said, slaved all their cities down to 1-2 population. England has suffered greatly from the lash as well.

Yet my considerable suffering was foisted upon me. Your suffering is a product of your own choosing. You choose to enter this war and got beat, yet you seem to refuse to accept the reasonable consequences that come from that. Especially after inflicting considerable consequences on your foes (betraying them and killing a large number of troops). I suggest you go ahead with the peace treaty so you can rebuild. At least you were made an offer...

[Israel (DoE)]

chat of the turn before Israel's betrayal.

[France (DoE)]

Finished my turn, but did not paused for France. 4 hours on the clock. Can you please confirm you can get it in 4 hours or if not - say when you will be able to play and I will pause (and most probably unpause when you need it) for you.

Yep - good timing for me. I can play. Thx!

[Israel (DoE)]

England, you are still a sub-top civ. That doesn't compare to Israel.
20 turns of being complete idle (including building nothing!) hurts a behind civ like Israel even more.
Add to that that we had already suffered from our betrayal. We lost Ekron (razed) and Hebron had lost most of it's buildings, including all cultural buildings, which was terrible for our cultural war with the Arabians.

Add to that that the Turks really can't be trusted. twice they have broken a just signed peace agreement. (first with Jerusalem's razing, which happened 3 turns after signing peace, then this current time, when peace was broken 12 turns after signing it). Add to that that the demand made first (give up Ekron) wasn't good enough enymore when I accepted it.
The Turks have proven to me that it's hard to trust them. (despite that they claim it the other way around).
The Russiand increased their demands as well overnight. Suddenly another 100gpt was added without nothing happening.

So the offers were both outragious and untrustworthy.
Yes, what happened to England was outragious as well. But England is still an important nation. If I hear the numbers of armies you can bring up, your ships. You're still a power to deal with. Israel is now most probably at 10% of what England is.
Cutting 50% from a #1 nation doesn't compare to cutting 70% from a #12 nation.
You simply can't compare the English situation to the Israelian situation.

I was making deals. I gave up Sidon to the Mali and was willing to give up Bethlehem to the Russians. Ekron to the Turks.
Not a single moment did the Russians/Turks negotiate. It was always exactly what they wanted, or nothing.
I doubt that ever before a civ in diplogaming gave up so much for peace as Israel did offer this time.

[France (DoE)]

but in order to defend our remaining cities we have gone mostly gold for at least 20 turns.

For me it is probably closer to 3x that.

And we still don't have peace

...me neither

England has suffered greatly from the lash as well.

Me too.

At least you were made an offer...

I made you one. And a reasonably fair one. And one that I would have been in doo-doo with my allies had we gone ahead with it, but I was willing to pursue it.

You never responded.

That's a choice you made.

[Israel (DoE)]

going gold for the benefit of your own civ can't be compared to going gold for the benefit of another civ.
It's ridiculous to compare that.

Investing in a possible victory can't be compared to paying everything after a defeat.
The money invested by England/France is not gone. It's still there in the form of armies.

I do not understand why people feel the need to argue what I am saying.
The facts are there, Israel is totally cripled (anybody wants to argue that?)
And Israel has shown to be willing to give in to demands (Ekron, Sidon, Bethlehem, huge ammount of money).
Does anybody want to claim that being willing to give up Bethlehem is not a terribly huge sacrifice for peace? (especially if you consider how much Israel had already lost at that very moment)

[Israel (DoE)]

Somebody stop me talking.

[Native America (DoE)]

May I suggest: There is much to much OOC going on about the game. I feel regularly like this thread has become the place the actual diplomacy occurs. The other thread is becoming eye candy at best.

Having played numerous other games (most especially EU2) in multi-player mode, requiring the investment of weeks/months of time, if one or more of the players is driven to the point of unhappiness with the game, the other players should consider that they have perhaps failed in some basic aspect to understand the point of such a game. I'm not saying they have here; sometimes it's simply the outlook of the aggrieved player that is at fault. And it should be understood that "measured war" is not intended to mean "balance of power on all sides." But two players who feel hard-done by in the same area of the world should be a tip-off that there is possibly a group of overly-aggressive players who should have reshaped their storyline to reign in their efforts, leaving less bitterness in its wake.

But regardless of whether this is true or not, the time to discuss this is at the end of the game, in reflection, when it isn't impacting ongoing diplomacy. Now, if you want to get your point across, weave it into the story.

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, I just read everything and have a lot to say, but it will be all night long (not that I dislike the idea of civ/history related chat all night long... oh, how I miss smoking in nights like this...)

I can handle it very well, though I do have a need to express this though.

I can understand you.

I will just put few points:

Your last offer was outragious, it's a bummer that you don't see that. And that's maybe where the problem is. Neither Turkey nor Russia is able to place yourself into my shoes. Paying 100% of my full economy (all cities on commerce) to Turkey and then 100gpt to Russia for 20 turns effectively means that my economy is totally idle for 20 turns. After 20 turns I'm completely behind everything.

Nothing outrageous I see here - I told you already - if you are willing to pay these same money for cannons to feed my cossacks instead of paying for peace, then this is what you choose, not me. Also, these money will be used for upgrades, bribes, or paying back some loans I got. I will not say details, but I owe the world times more than those mere 4000 gold. And this sum was this, because I wanted you to not be able to upgrade, nor feed my enemies. And I wanted these money to act like investment from you - if you invested already in our alliance 4000 gold, it may make you not to leave it so easy. I am not greedy. I can say with pure heart that Russia was way way better if stayed out of the war. I have lost about few tens of gold because I had to wage this war. BTW, while we in Europe are fighting, this gives the wise leaders in the other regions of the world, who decided to stay neutral huge favor.

going gold for the benefit of your own civ can't be compared to going gold for the benefit of another civ.
It's ridiculous to compare that.

Really? If you lose all this gold in upgraded units and lose those units? How this benefits you? One cannon costs 400 gold. Is it feels better to you to lose 10 cannons instead of give those money and have problemless future?

And why you say I did not bargain? I did lowered the duration of the 100 GPT deal. I accepted 350 GPT instead of 400. I did accepted you to keep Erkon/New Meggido. I did accepted you to even not close borders with the French. I was concerned to save you the fear of possible French revenge if I move out of Israel my armies. I told you I dont trust you and I need something you to invest, not to say now "Ok, we are friends" and after 5 or 15 turns when I dont expect you to say: "you were pressing and treatening me, thats only why I told you we are friends. Now I have army and I am strong and I will punish you."

Suddenly another 100gpt was added without nothing happening.

Those 100 GPT I told you what are for - this was your contribution as a friend of Russia. You put dent in my plans and killed quite a number of Russian soldiers, so these 2000 were compensation for Russia.

The most terrible backstab in this game came from Mali, btw.

As far as I know, you dont had any agreements with Mali. And why they attacking you would be a backstab - they are after their small goals. It is shame for France that they threatened with war Mali, after they had NAP with them.

Yes, what happened to England was outragious as well. But England is still an important nation. If I hear the numbers of armies you can bring up, your ships. You're still a power to deal with.

If England is still important nation, it is MAINLY because she has friends. Whithout her friends, England would be some minor nation with people scattered all around the globe and persuaded from everywhere. Where are your friends now? How you can still be on France's side when they deserted you so outrageous?

Your suffering is a product of your own choosing. You choose to enter this war and got beat, yet you seem to refuse to accept the reasonable consequences that come from that.

This! I told you once, will repeat it again what we the Slavs say about this: "When the stallions are kicking at each- other, the mules have no business there."

I may find some fun in trying to destroy your stack now.

You can have hard time destroying our stack, as your cannons are half destroyed (along with some good 6-7 of your muskets, half damaged at 0.7 or so by the cossacks. Our stack advancing to you is almost twice as stronger now because I did upgraded whole bunch of outdated Turkish and Arabian units to ridiculous rifles and cossacks. Another whole rifles army is coming your way trough Caspian Gates. Other army is moving from Greece by sea. Ai will fall the next turn. Those armies from macemen and knights will become rifles and cossacks too.

I dont think it is time for you to stop talking, but it is time for you to stop acting in rage and hate against us, but think how you to lead your nation out of the disaster you put her in.

[Russia (DoE)]

WOOOW - what a post I just wrote!

And I felt like this is only a touching to all the points I wanted to address.

May I suggest: There is much to much OOC going on about the game. I feel regularly like this thread has become the place the actual diplomacy occurs. The other thread is becoming eye candy at best.

Yes, a lot of diplomacy is happening not in the story thread, but I see nothing wrong in debating here too. I feel this entertaining almost as I did reading (and sometimes writing) the stories.

requiring the investment of weeks/months of time, if one or more of the players is driven to the point of unhappiness with the game, the other players should consider that they have perhaps failed in some basic aspect to understand the point of such a game.

Can you please explain?

[Israel (DoE)]

- I paid 1600 for cannons, you requested 6000 for peace.
- Investing in tools is a lot more fun, even if you may lose those tools in war, then paying a long time for nothing in return.
- Of course I understand why you wanted that money. I fear that you never understood how small a nation Israel was and how it was already behind in many things.
- You lowered the 400 to 350 b/c I simply was not making more then 350 at most at that moment. You did not lower the 100gpt deal, it was first just without an end date. Then an end date of 20 turns was sticked on it.
- You offered me indeed 350gpt for 10 turns + 100gpt for 20 turns instead of losing Ekron. I then choose to give Ekron. Giving up Ekron was then not accepted. I had to both give up Ekron AND pay the money. So if there was bargaining then it was only increasing what I had to pay. Your failure is that you are not trying to understand Israel first.
- Yes you told me what the 100gpt was for. I just said that it was added upon the 350gpt a turn later. First it was not there, then suddenly it was there as well. First it was just Ekron, then it was Ekron + 350gpt, then it was Ekron + 350gpt + 100gpt.
Now you have Ekron razed, Nain, Sidon gone to Mali, Ai about to fall, Tel Aviv, and still you want more.
- The Mali made the worst backstab b/c they attacked just at the moment that I was already in huge problems. It was an attack purely based on opportunism to take advantage of our problem. The fact that our deals were ancient doesn't matter. If you see a person being robbed and smashed on the floor, and the robbers run away and you go to him to pull out his wallet, forgotten by the robbers, then that's a very very terrible act. That's more or less what the Mali did.
- The question why England is important doesn't really matter. It still is important. For the record: I do consider what happened to the English over the top as well.
- You failed to answer my questions: I did offer you very reasonable peace terms, not in the last place Bethlehem. You choose to destruct Israel anyway.

You were, as the big power in this game, not trying to keep the game fun for Israel.
You even tried to trow as much as possible against Israel, Zulu, Mali, Arabia, rifles, etc. We never even had a chance.
And then you only wanted peace at your own terms. Terms that would take away once again the fun of the game from me. Hitting enter as a matter of fact for 20 turns (more or less).
You never looked at it from my point of view. And still you are not doing that. You are giving all these excuses and reasons and blabla, but the facts are clear. you have annihilated Israel while there was no reason for that. There were plenty of options to keep Israel alive, but the only option you wanted Israel to take was to let Israel fund your war.

And WTF, is my army 50% gone as well?
How the hell is that possible? I moved it away 2 tiles from Tel Aviv...did the cultural borders vanish with the fall of Tel Aviv so that you could move over the roads to my units?

That sucks, I didn't saw that coming....
Then Israel is even more cripled then I already thought. I then can't even defend myself anymore.
Well, congrats on your military skills there then. And stupid for me that I didn't saw that coming