Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Inca (DoE)]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about this, but I really am thankful for Turkey and England sticking through it with what was going on in their personal lives. It's very appreciated, and I'm sorry to hear you've had such a bad time. Same goes for anyone else having issues throughout the game, of course.

[Russia (DoE)]

But I was never a full member like Turkey or Neandor or France or you were for your respective alliances. A "supporting member" that was making deals with the other alliance and trying quite a lot to form independent relations with other nations.

Yeah, support - that was all about my friend the Inca.

When I approached him, Incacona was like 15-th nation on score or something. But we fitted well - I never asked him to send armies and declare war to anyone, but I did payed to use his gold and his production. I confess with pure heart that Inca was very strong, and even key point in our win in the Great War.

But so is Inca an example of how to make good diplomacy - he was attacked and "colonized" by the English. But instead of opposing them to death just as India did, they decided to befriend them. And befriending them proved very very good move. While India with opposing China illustrated what a bad decision they made.

[Vikings (DoE)]

First off, by putting the word "issues" in quotes like that, it makes it seem like you think I am lying or making it up. And then talking about me thinking only my RL is legitimate, or that I think I am a better person because I mentioned my RL??? What is that about? I thought that's what the OOC thread is for... to talk about OOC stuff. If you have stuff to get off your chest I will listen.

I'm sad to hear about English player losing his fiancee, and I'm thankful to American and England for their kind words, but Its not a competition to say who has a more difficult life. The only reason I mentioned it was because of England saying he doubted anyone had gone through as much troubles and I just wanted to show sympathy like "yes I too had sad times and I also kept playing, so I can appreciate Englands frustration with folks quitting."

I hope you read my apology to you a bit after that. I brought up that quote because the England player was in general being belligerent and kind of an ass. To state that he has issues and no one else's compares? He comes off like an ass, at least to me. I realize my statement about it earlier probably does too. Again, I apologize to you, as it was not intended as a shot at you.

I have my own "issues" to deal with (let's see...besides losing a couple family members to cancer, though that didn't happen this year...my son is borderline autistic though high-functioning; my grandmother is starting to show early signs of Alzheimers; my wife and I have both been let go from our jobs, me after 13 years, her after 9, and the company folded; we were forced to declare bankruptcy, lost our house and had to move; our profession is so poor right now because of the economy that my wife has taken a job in another field that pays little more than half of what she used to make with no health benefits, and she really hates her job; I'm still unemployed and haven't been able to find anything; and this past week my wife's sister and her boyfriend have basically turned on us over a misunderstanding on their part).

I've probably been a bit of an ass too with a few of my responses here. I have stated before that I'm occasionally a bit thin-skinned and some things rile me up and make me want to respond.

[Inca (DoE)]

Yes, 6 out of 18 is 1/3 - not good, but not the end of the world either. Oh, you forget the Azteca. He is not playing the last 7-8 turns (despite providing since then the Axis with hefty 350 GPT )

So, here's how I see it...

Involved players:
Inca
Russia
Turkey
Arabia
Japan

Sidelines players (not really posting much at all, but playing their turns or being temp-subbed):
England
Natives
Americans
Mali
Israel
Mongolia

Missing/inactive players:
Azteca
France
Neandor
Vikings
China
Zulu
India

Basically, 5/18 are really committed to the game at this point, while 1/3rd are playing but otherwise basically silent, and over 1/3rd are gone. It's not a healthy game from any perspective, and if it's going to be me and 3 other people posting regularly, I just don't want to put in the effort for that. Besides, my game is pretty simple from here on out: support Russia and Turkey as they take over the world. It's not fun for me either, and I might as well just start gifting Russia 1000GPT and automating the rest. If I was interested in making more story posts, okay, but for such a small crowd and so many silent players... I'm not really sure. I don't like putting so much energy into it if it's barely getting responded to. Some of those story posts take 2 hours to make. I enjoy the process, but a lot of that enjoyment comes from the creative sharing rather than just creating. I mean, I could write stories for myself any old time but I don't... I should, I guess, but I don't

Edit: I missed the American player in here. I'd like to hear everyone else's opinion on ending the game now, I've said enough, although I'll respond as though it's AAR as I do consider much of the game basically over now if we need to find subs for the majority of the top players.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Apparently you're better people too, or so you seem to believe. I could state some "issues" I've been going through too like you and the Turks did. But I won't bother. Apparently yours are the only legitimate "issues" since you felt the need to bring them up.

First off, by putting the word "issues" in quotes like that, it makes it seem like you think I am lying or making it up. And then talking about me thinking only my RL is legitimate, or that I think I am a better person because I mentioned my RL??? What is that about? I thought that's what the OOC thread is for... to talk about OOC stuff. If you have stuff to get off your chest I will listen.

I'm sad to hear about English player losing his fiancee, and I'm thankful to American and England for their kind words, but Its not a competition to say who has a more difficult life. The only reason I mentioned it was because of England saying he doubted anyone had gone through as much troubles and I just wanted to show sympathy like "yes I too had sad times and I also kept playing, so I can appreciate Englands frustration with folks quitting."

[Russia (DoE)]

BTW, once in a while I said you are the most reasonable of the Axis bunch and you prove you are still. France is not here to give opinion and for the Neandorish quitters - good or nothing With arguing reasonable you just prove my words.

[Inca (DoE)]

Basically, those were the specifics. France came at me one day, demanded that, and I said I'd think about it. The beginning, the end.

My point regarding Petrolla is that had I not taken it from the Turks, they'd still hold it right now. It was getting settled that turn whether I made a deal with them for its lease or not. I was unaware, of course, of whatever dealings you had with the Americans at that time.

For a while (when England's cities were still forfeit), I wasn't very likely to deal with you guys, as I was trying to balance the game back to where my long-time ally had his cities and security back. But once that had passed, well, you've seen me reopen a good bit now. Perhaps I overstated my willingness throughout the game to "play both sides". It was really only in the run-up to the war, but once England lost its cities I was fairly forced into becoming a Russian ally. Not that I minded it so much, and I was always willing to let England set the terms of my European interests as I had none for the longest time, being more interested in the first half of the game (time-wise) in having a proper American and/or Pacific center to my foreign concerns. But then the Natives weren't communicative, the Americans either, and the Aztecs were MIA for most of the game and then the new player was too aggressive for my tastes and things got set up at a bad point anyway, and the Chinese and Japanese basically never responded to my PMs until the Japanese wanted a navy from me.

Oh, I fully admit I was part of this "Russian alliance" and was disingenuous at times diplomatically over that point during the game (although my commitment did waver at times). But I was never a full member like Turkey or Neandor or France or you were for your respective alliances. A "supporting member" that was making deals with the other alliance and trying quite a lot to form independent relations with other nations. I mean, most of the reason I was helping China in that war was for just that purpose. For a very long time I had wanted to set up a proper Pacific partnership with China and Japan so I could have more independence and neutrality, but neither was talking much outside of the arms deal I made with Japan. I'm not sure you, France, Turkey, or England were considering setting up alternate blocs ever...

So much of my orientation in this game has been decided on who actually answered and sent me PMs and communicated with me properly, IC or OOC. Russia and England did, few others bothered (to your credit, you did at the beginning, and I agree you had good reasons to not do so afterward, but much of the reason you got poor responses from me was that background and ongoing lack of interest from Neandor and France).

Some of this lack of ongoing discussion makes sense, given the situations, but some of it doesn't really. Dropped balls. My lesson, at least for diplogames, is that it rarely hurts (unless you let slip that you can see someone's cities) to talk to other players regularly, even if it's just some IC rubbish, to keep that line of communication open. I didn't do that as well as I could have either, I suppose.

[Russia (DoE)]

Regarding the city, I did not know that the Turks were there first and gifted it to you. One turn the city was not there, and when I logged back in the city was there and in your hands so I assumed it was you. You still took the city, just as I took Tlaxcala. I was just tiring of the game and of writing stories by then and didn't make any official protest like what was done by the Turks and Russians with Tlaxcala.

It is absolutely not the same. Tlaxcala is some 4000 years old Azteca city with almost half a million population, universities, aqueducts, etc. and suddenly it is gifted to starve to 10000 population while working towards acquiring an oil. While Petrolla was planned as a petrol platform long ago. Petrol platforms is normal to be gifted or loaned away. I was the first to Scientific Methods - yeah, you were after the shiny military toys - cannons and MGs, while I stupidly pursued Scientific Method. But it turned out I was not only a step before you - I was a whole lap in front of you - I was planning the world after the Great War I knew where the Oil is and I knew who is going to reach it first.

[Russia (DoE)]

Yes, 6 out of 18 is 1/3 - not good, but not the end of the world either. Oh, you forget the Azteca. He is not playing the last 7-8 turns (despite providing since then the Axis with hefty 350 GPT )

[Vikings (DoE)]

@Inca (because I don't feel like quoting your post): I was in the middle of writing my response and didn't see your second post until after it was done.

As I said, I don't know the specifics of your conversations with France so I can't comment on that. Regarding the Native Americans, after we had mistakenly included them in our PM fest they went and declared that they were friendly to Russia. That is why I put them in as a Russian ally/puppet even though they never did anything direct against us. They publicly declared for Russia, meaning they were neither on our side nor available for trying to get them on our side. Your actions with the Russians and Turks led us to believe that you were their ally as well, and you never attempted to disabuse us of that notion. We felt there was nothing to gain in continuing to try to court you, nor did we really trust that if you did "jump ship" to us that you weren't still their ally.

As to not seeing you attack us directly, there is still no doubt that you were working with the Russian alliance with upgrades, units, etc. You were not our ally, nor were you neutral, you were actively working with them.

Regarding the city, I did not know that the Turks were there first and gifted it to you. One turn the city was not there, and when I logged back in the city was there and in your hands so I assumed it was you. You still took the city, just as I took Tlaxcala. I was just tiring of the game and of writing stories by then and didn't make any official protest like what was done by the Turks and Russians with Tlaxcala.

[Inca (DoE)]

BTW, are we calling this game and starting an After Action Report, or we only argue with few quitters?

If Neandor, France, Vikings, China, Zulu, and India are all gone, yes, I'm not sure it's worth playing on. I also don't want to put the effort into the game if there's only like 3 other regular contributors and everyone's basically "checked out".

[Russia (DoE)]

I have played a lot of diplogames and I have taken over as a perm-sub several times for sucky nations that have been totally screwed and made them into fun civs to play.

This was a perfect opportunity for this too. But I find a bit of discord here. In the last few weeks you said something about how in previous games someone almost made you ulcer and you were mad at the game. Beside learning a new word in English, I thought to myself "Well, this guy is real diplo-player - he takes the game personally, he takes the blows of the game, and yet he plays and survives, he is survivor" But just now you have proved me wrong - now you say you actually enjoyed those past games, contrary to this last one. But what happened to your nation in this game? You decided to oppose the largest and mightiest nation on your continent - well done, but opposing such a giant takes not only to whine - it takes some diplomacy, some sly moves, some planning, some fighting too. Back in the time I was planning how to deal with China, as they were simply going to be unstoppable developing at peace while we beat the crap out of ourselves in the Great War. I did approached Mongolia and offered them help in fighting China. Yes, it was not much I could have done, but starting to plan something sometimes leads you to something big. Rebuffing all means nothing. Then I decided to reach out for you - tell us - did I approached you, asking you if you are willing to stand against China with my help? Did I ever proposed to you to arm you with Rifles and you were supposed to transfer those rifles to Mongolia, while arming yourself to assault the Chinese too? Did I? Yes, I did. And what you did? Said me this is too big risk for you and you have to consider it more. And you never came back to me, but started to state you are friend with Neandor and started to talk the Japanese in attacking England, as they did not had already 3 major military powers beating them badly in Europe and in the Pacific.

England weeped over to me they were going to lose what was left theirs in the Pacific and then I took the things in my hands.

[Russia (DoE)]

BTW, are we calling this game and starting an After Action Report, or we only argue with few quitters?

[Vikings (DoE)]

Apparently you're better people too, or so you seem to believe. I could state some "issues" I've been going through too like you and the Turks did. But I won't bother. Apparently yours are the only legitimate "issues" since you felt the need to bring them up..

BTW, I'm not trying to belittle the Turks loss of his parents to cancer. My wife and I have both lost family members to cancer, including her mother, so I know what it's like. My apologies to you if what I said came off that way.

As for the English, I can match you issue for issue, plus more. So...yeah.

[Inca (DoE)]

Note my second message. It was you that contacted me, yes I think so. I was already committed heavily, and I didn't want to go putting 100% of my production for 20+ turns into other people's nations without good payouts, plus the backlash for selling you units wasn't going to be worth a small markup.

France wanted to "balance the scales"? Right, a giant joke. France demanded I gift them a ton of free units. That set the tone for a long time (which is being re-set by Neandor quite recently). "Hey, sorry we closed borders on you for half the game and haven't really ever talked to you, now, hey, be nice and give us like 12 free units..." I'm pretty sure this doesn't exist as a diplo modifier for AIs, but Firaxis should really consider including a "-10 You made my spit out my drink in astonished and baffled offense" modifier for Civ6.

The Natives were never in the Russian alliance AFAIK. The Natives put a lot of effort into not being in any alliance, and now here they are in the Russian alliance in your eyes, even after I was the one to sell them units and build infrastructure for them and they made a big stink about not appearing or being part of any group as part of my "build a new faction" attempt. You guys demand independence, and then you have a truly independent player like the Natives, and they do basically nothing and become a "Russian puppet"...

There was a lot of back-and-forth behind the scenes over that Azteca thing. In the end, there was little I could do for the Aztecs, and eventually I gave a show of support to Russia, having few other options. Not trusting me at that point was probably correct, as by then I had seen that any American faction was going to be crippled from the start and fairly unworkable. I was never happy about that, but then I ultimately supported the Turks and Russians as I didn't like massive ACE armies sitting a few tiles from my borders either. It was a lot less of an issue than seeing similar Turkish armies there when I didn't expect them. Both were issues, as I didn't want any further European involvement in the Americas, but Turkey just wasn't someone to be messed with militarily, especially not by my weak nation.

You say I'm in the Russian alliance, but you're never going to see a stack of 40 Inca infantry outside of Neander... which I could do in like 20T quite easily if I wanted. I have kept out of these wars directly recently (always, but for other reasons) because I haven't been needed, and it has been out of character to do so. I know I've worked to keep the game unbalanced with my material support, but then it's been my belief that this "imbalance" was, up until this turn at least, not as severe as it's made out to be, and following my own interests led inevitably to such imbalances, which I've tried recently to correct more and more, even at a rather high likelihood of net negative consequences to myself.

Disregarding England's tone, he does make some solid points that had the two lost fleets not happened (and had the Aztec's original victory not been erased), the game would be extremely different right now, especially with a vengeful India gobbling up China. Just take one of those lost fleets back, and the game's still not nearly so one-sided. That plus my own neutralization would have surely ended whatever superpowerhegemonicoverlordshippuppetmastery Russia had going.

Do note that the Turks snuck a settler onto that Alaskan soil (which the Americans had promised me already for my attempted intervention in the Turkish-Azteca-American war), and then the Turks gave their city to me as a loan. They will get it back later (never, I guess).