Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Vikings (DoE)]

@Ottomans, because I don't want to quote your whole post: My post was not condemning you for manipulating game mechanics, I was just stating that neither I nor any of the other ACE members, or the Aztecs, realized that the sinking of the fleet in Tlaxcala was possible. If we had then we would have taken different measures such as having the fleet gifted over to me while it was in my port. I didn't know exactly what happened with the Azteca move that was canceled out as I was busy moving at the time and didn't keep up with posts very much.

Just the same, neither Neandor or I realized that the defensive pact between us wouldn't keep you out. I don't use them hardly at all so I don't have any valid experience with them. I can guarantee that neither that or the Tlaxcala sinking will ever happen to me again. You are correct that we should have known the mechanics there and we didn't. I know a lot of little tricks, but certainly not all of them. Now I know this one.

As to the fear and England's bluff. Yes, we were afraid of what you, the Russian alliance could do. We were afraid that if we attacked someone that we would get stabbed in the back because you guys had us surrounded (England, Russia, Turks, and Mali, plus whatever could come up from the Incas). We were intent on defending ourselves and getting machine guns, etc. for that purpose, and attacking someone else was never discussed until after the great war when France and I were pondering attacking the Inca.

I personally was afraid of England attacking me. I still stripped my land of units in order to save Neandor's cities, and then England attacked. As to why I believe the bluff, it didn't have anything to do with you (sorry). I just believed that what they were saying was the truth. Coming into this only 15-20 days before it happened I had no experience with them to justify that it wasn't the complete and honest truth. Perhaps I'm naive as I also believed that you told the truth when you said you would not attack anyone smaller than yourself and then you attacked me anyway. So yeah, I shouldn't ever believe anything you say, apparently.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

One last great AAR post by Vikings that I wanted to respond to:

Since I lost my big post suffice to say that yes we believed the bluff. Why shouldn't we have believed it when we had no information that would have discounted the bluff?

Awww I wanted to hear the reasons you guys bought the bluff! Really, I was hoping that it at least had something to do with Suleiman razing cities from the sea in the past.

Perceptions and belief in your bluffs shaped a lot of what we did.

I think this sums it up nicely. England also had a good quote about out strength being made up mostly of perception and fear. I was wondering all during the War "Why dont Neandor attack me? I was so vunerable. Why does Viking not just start landing Rifles by Galleon Behind Russia's front lines? Russia had no Navy to stop them. Why dont Neandor Vikings and India just all invade Russia at the same time? Why wont France just give Israel the rest of their men to take Damascus? And everytime I kept reaching the same conclusion, "They must be scared." Neandor was scared Russia would invade them if they invaded me or I would invade them if they invaded Russia. Viking was scared that England would invade him if he invaded Russia. India is scared of everyone, etc. That was the only conclusion I could reach. And it seems I was right. Fear was one of our most powerful weapons. The only stronger one was loyalty to our friends.

Nor could we get back the help we had sent to Azteca because of the Turks destroying the fleet in Tlaxcala (A game mechanic that none of us anticipated could happen).

Now here is where I have to call shennanigans. Much Ado has been made about this being unfair and Turkey manipulating game mechanics and everything besides "Wow good move, you caught us with our pants down, not paying attention, being careless, playing sloppy, etc.," but one thing Axis can not claim or at least should not claim, is that they "did not anticipate that this could happen." I am skeptical of this whole attempt to characterize the sinking of the Axis fleet at Tlaxcala as some obscure trick/exploit that only the diobolical expert-civ player Ottomans knew about.

At the beginnig of the North American War, when Aztecs doublemoved Ottomans and the game had to be reloaded, THE WHOLE argument was about how the Aztecs had sunk the Ottoman ships in port and how I had forgotten to unload the Rifles into the city making that whole DM victory possible. That's why the whole thing was so controversial, because everyone knew that the reload was warranted, but it was going to undo the Aztecs big triumph over the evil hated Ottomans. A bunch of people including the Aztecs commented how they never knew that ships with soldiers in them could get sunk like that. I even remember Viking player commenting that he didn't want the reload if it was going to get the Ottomans out of being surprised and losing their ships that way.

So it is just unbeleivable to me that when the Ottomans use the very same tactic, that EVERYBODY knew about because of the VERY public, week long pause and argument over the Miami reload, that anyone would have the audacity to claim that "they didn't know this could happen. And equally preposterous is that all the people who praised Azteca surprising the Ottomans with this tactic, then Condemn Turkey as a "manipulator of game mechanics."

Anyway, this is not even the main point. The MAIN point is that Every player must learn well the way the game works. Would you say while playin RISK, that there is "mechanics manipulation" when the Attaker rolls 3 dice, just because you didn't know that you could do this? You have a responsibility to know the rules of the game you are playing. And your failure to know is not "manipulation" or "exploits" by those who do know. It is poor play by you.

Perceptions and assumptions fueled this latest loss of fleet too. We assumed that the defensive pact we signed would make it so that anyone who attacked Freedom Port would have to face Neandor's defensive forces.

The same applies to the Tlaxcala sinking, and the same applies to the Freedom City sinking that ended the game. If you did not know how DP works, then that is your fault not mine. You tried to outsmart us, when we kept blocking your attempt to get Oil. You said "Ha! we will get Arabia to give to us and then we will sail to Viking territory for upgrades." But then when you realized England would block this, you said "Ha! we will fool them by gifting a City in the Mediterraneanand doing our upgrades there."

Then when you saw the culture drop down in the city and realized the upgraded ships would have to end their turn in port, You tried to use a clever deception "Ha let us sign this DP, knowing the Ottoman will DoW and try to sink our ships but then he will be at war with both of us and our units will defend. Haha! we fooled him. Obviously this was your intent, to lure me into starting the war, only to be unable to sink your ships, because otherwise you would have gifted the units instead of using that sneaky DP gambit. But I knew more than you, because I knew how DP truly works so I outsmart you despite your attempt to outsmart me. And for this I get called the "Master of Manipulation"

Plus I also was under the apparently mistaken assumption that the Turks would not attack me directly because of their in-character statement that they would not attack any nations that were smaller than they (which included me).

If the game continued, I had a whole storyline that involved a trial to determine whether Turk policy was violated by Supreme Commander Jamal. But since the game is over (Maybe) I will just spoil the surprise and say that the result of the trial would have, in a Merchant of Venice style last minute explanation of the exact words of the Sultan's decree held that the policy is not to capture cities from lower raked nations "for CONQUEST purposes" and since Jamal captured the city to Liberate it from the Vikings and desstroy the Enemy fleet, not to conquer and keep it, he would be acquitted and released... Sounds great huh?

[Vikings (DoE)]

Well after a lot of hesitation, I am prepared to take Neandor..
(even if that means I could get kicked around a second time)..

Russia (DoE) and me made a package deal concerning WPC/G&H and DoE with the result that both games get going again..

Good deal. I was afraid Russia would try to talk me into taking it and I'd feel bad for having to tell him no.

I will try to write up something tonight for both you and Toni to let you know what we have been up to (though you all know we just lost 15 destroyers in Freedom Port )

France is coming back in about 4 days. I will continue to play his turns until he gets back and then he can decide what to do from then on. I'll send him an email tonight too to let him know to expect different players when he comes back.

[OzzyKP]

Fantastic news.

[Calanthian]

Well after a lot of hesitation, I am prepared to take Neandor..
(even if that means I could get kicked around a second time)..

Russia (DoE) and me made a package deal concerning WPC/G&H and DoE with the result that both games get going again..

[Russia (DoE)]

Perhaps I can be persuaded, but does the game really have a future?

All but Neandor have players right now and without a proper player for the Neandors, the game is not worth, so at least in this regard - yes, the game is fully playable.

Do people can have fun playing the game forward? Yes, I am sure they can. Do the Axis have chances in a war with our alliance? Sure, it all depends on how you all play it.

To add to this, I had proposed a 30 turns peace, so diplomacy can be rearranged and renegotiated. Which can prove really problematic for me, as after all those accusations of being overpowered, manipulator, and so on and so on, now everyone will feel the urge to demonize and betray me to be in accordance with the leading diplomatic fashion of bashing Russia

[The Priest]

Maybe you are true about the reloads, or maybe it wasn't just this last month. Or maybe it was all the pauses. Perhaps I can be persuaded, but does the game really have a future?

And hey, don't believe the propaganda. I didn't take Venetii at all! Neandor felt so bad about all the accuasions that he broke off the treaty with me (by which I would have gained Venetii if i remember right) and simply squared a compromise with France. It was Neandor which too it, and choked me just like France had been threatening to, though neador had the strength to defend it.

Back then, if I remember right, I wasn't so much afraid of the Neandor, I was just desparate for land. Boxed in on ever side. France and Neador expanding east, Egypt rebranding itself as Israel and expanding north. No ocean so no chance of doing a Viking or England and building colonies. So I felt I had to take an aggressive stance against the chokes, and I went for and got the sistine chapel to protect my limited land.

So yes I tried to work with Neandor very early on aginst French choking (Veneti secured the whole of italy for france), but they abandoned our treaty. No hard feelings for them because of that because the OCC stuff was tricky. But generally I never find myself having good alliances with neighbours - too much competition - my allies are always my neighbours neighbours! So never alliances with Neandor - which was why, if i remember right, we worked together both feeling theatened by them (since it was obvious that they too were squahsed for space and so were likely to try to find living space in the east).

Arabia. No never an ally. They stole land from me early on in the east and I was intending on taking it back when i left the game. I think Egypt early on experienced it as alliance against him because both Ottomans and Arabia were 'serverely challenged' by Egypt's rebranding itself as Israel and trying to plant its second city as a culture monster in Jersualem, pushign its borders far into our areas. But Arabia and I never got on, just for a moment we were both anti israel. Maybe they or others tried to tell you arabia and I were against you, to keep you feeling threatened in your south, or maybe i have forgotten some devious plan.

Thats how i remember it, but it was a long time ago!

[Russia (DoE)]

a game involving storying is much more demanding than Dof

Not true. I mean - Neandor was not posting stories anyway, so it will be OK if you dont post too - that will be no change for bad. But if you take the position and play it strong as you can, this can make for a great finish of this great game. Great fun for you too controlling the world biggest army in an upcoming WW2. (Or not much fun if you dont like much being kicked in the a$$ )

[Russia (DoE)]

Sigh... Too bad - I had vested much hope in you

And it is not true about the reloads - it was 1 reload in the last month. The game was just unreachable - no one is insured against technical problems - and then the Ai double-moved the Indians. It may sound weird, but it was the reason the game to be reloaded.

Dont forget the game stayed paused about 2-3 weeks when you took Venetii. So this 1 day-a-month reload was nothing special.

BTW, mentioning Venetii - what happened back then? Why you were so afraid of the Neandors a bit later? - I though you were allies with them? I said to myself - man, I am fried meat - Neandor, France and the Turks are in alliance and the Neandors are hating me...

And what happened with Arabia? I heard you two were allies too - this time specially against me? What was the deal there?

[The Priest]

But still - you taking the Neandors is absolutely real proposal - you play in the DoF, right? So I guess your RL problems, which took you away from Civ are gone - why dont you sub the Neandors and help giving a great game the finish she deserves?

Its a tempting offer but I don't think I can. My rl situation mean I have to serverly limit how much time I spend on civ, and a game involving storying is much more demanding than Dof. And of course I am in DoF so it would mean taking on a second game. Also, I have to say watching DoE the last month or so has made me glad not to be in it, so many reloads and arguments.

It is tempting but ... my guess is it isn't going to finish quickly or easily, so I don't think I can. Sorry :-(

[Russia (DoE)]

I am glad to see a dispute handled in a mature way. (Something I lack sometimes- I do warm up much at times)

But still - you taking the Neandors is absolutely real proposal - you play in the DoF, right? So I guess your RL problems, which took you away from Civ are gone - why dont you sub the Neandors and help giving a great game the finish she deserves?

[The Priest]

@Russia - thanks. Perhaps part of the problem, aside from my wickedness, was that the closeness of nations in europe meant choking was going on with second cities, which strained previously existing norms of behaviour.

@Ottoman - sigh. I've never claimed to be particularly gentlemanly, just to point out evidence worth noting from how previous games have worked out. I think you have really, and I am sure genuinely, misunderstood my original post. I never posted about my virtue, or held myself up as some model of a gentlemanly code, so attacks on my virtue are rather pointless, however well they are proved. Old pm's from me as Ottomans can't contradict the point about how previous games have run! But I don't suppose we are going to see eye to eye on this, and everyone else will be well bored of this exchange, so I will shut up.

[Russia (DoE)]

I thought it worth pointing out that while his analysis might apply to this game, I don't think it has actually always applied.

Understood now. I guess he is saying this from his experience. I got the feeling he is talking about pitbosses as a whole, not exactly for the diplo-games. And then he said he has quite experience in pitbosses.

Maybe it was me as the wicked first ottoman sultan who started the rot?

Yeah, not a bad guess
And maybe the new blood in the diplo-games (about 1/3 of the players were first-time diplo-gamers) has its share for creating such a turbulent (but still GREAT - by the words of few diplo-gurus) game Not bad for an amateurs, eh?

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Less personal arguments.

Sorry Inca Something you might know about me by now, is I'm one of those people who LOVES to argue, LOVES long arguments, LOVES nasty personal arguments, and LOVES arguing about civ. Basically, I 'm an @ss, when I want to be. So, getting back to it...

@ Ottomans

You really do make me laugh, though at the same time you sadly reveal your approach to discussions. Perhaps that is why few engage with you.

A mock apology for ignoring the argument and making personal attacks followed by ... four more paragraphs of personal attacks which continue to ignore the argument that, the previous diplo games I mentioned haven't followed the pattern you assert.

There was no "mock" apology. My apology was 100% genuine. You were 100% correct to say that my first response was pure ad-hominem with no substance whatsoever. I mentioned reading all your PMs, but I did not mention what they said or how they contradicted the point you were trying to make. So again, my argument was poor, and my apology was genuine.

Furthermore, I think you deserve for me to admit that in reading my second response the tone, emoticons and wording of it could lead someone who is already a little irritated towards me to think that I was being sarcastic, so just to clarify, it was not sarcastic, it was genuine.

But just because I am apologizing for the poor quality of the arguments in first response, does not mean I am apologizing for disagreeing with you. I say again, your assertions about the "gentleman's code" are wrong and naieve, and totally contradictory to your own behavior. I proved that in my second response, and Russia has confirmed it, so now you are the one who is being non responsive and engaging in pure non-substantive ad-hominem. I am curious to see if you will apologize now as I did to you before.

And here comes the constructive part - why dont you take the Neandors as a sub and teach this knave to behave?

Exactly The Priest, as we say in America, Put up... or Shut up.

And what are you talking about "No one engages you"? No one (except me, and Russia to agree with me and disagree with you) has responded to anything you said since this discussion started. EVERYTHING I say gets responded to. Everybody loves debating with Turkey!

[The Priest]

@Russia

Sorry you misunderstand me. I guess the Ottoman is new to this diplo playing, which is why I thought it worth pointing out that while his analysis might apply to this game, I don't think it has actually always applied.

Its not constructive for me to get into a great argument about events long ago. Particlarly because I've never been trying to say 'I am wonderful' nor at all 'Ottoman is bad' - far from it, it seems like he has played a great game. Never meant to imply otherwise. Just wanted to point out that the analysis of how games are 'always going to happen' doesn't seem to me to have been born out by previous games. Maybe it was me as the wicked first ottoman sultan who started the rot?