The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[India (DoC)]

So for all of indias attempts to be invaded he still knew he couldnt lose

I've said quite the opposite, but we never understood each other

[India (DoC)]

Yes, I know that the defender has huge advantage in combat.. there is nothing that can be done about it.. same way I lost my attacking force in Byzantium. only way to win is by big numbers...

(About Civ5, I'm a bit sceptical about what I've heard so far.. don't like it)

[Byzantium (DoC)]

India - I agree with you - things can often be closer that they looked in retrospect.

A comment on your 'ifs':

IF I wouldnt had destroy those Byzantine transports
IF they produce troops even harder and hold back nothing (on the power graph you can see that there were reserves),
- Yes your strike against those transports was genius. I was obviously aware of the danger of an attack, so the port was defended, but the cunning sequencing of the declarations of war, which meant my troops couldn't defend was inspired. Never seen it before - will remember (and use) it again! It connects with teh 'reserves' issue. I didn't have reserves as such though obviously my other borders were not undefended (we all had see what the Russians and Arabs would go given a under-defended neighbour) but rather I had far more troops than could fit on the ships which were left (and there was no point committing marines to the beach to suffer collateral when they could remain on ship). Produce troops harder - yes more could probably have been squeezed you're right.

IF they manage to convince Persia to threaten my homeland too,
- yes and more to the point if Persia had actually wanted a tower destroyed! Particlalry given your quite reasonable support from the natives and mali in the end, it woudl have taken a combined effort of Persia, England, Byzantium and Korea at least to have had a good chance.

IF they use a smaller civ or two (getting Egypt into the alliance upgrading his troops for example) etc.. it may had worked differently..probably

- yes but you had well frightened them! and most didn't really see it was in their interest to try to stop you. One large nation winning rather than another, and always the danger of other attacks (russians, arabas, incan attack on egypt etc.).

Spies - yes perhaps. I think though that this is one point which does reveal just what a dominant position the builder beginnings of India had given you. I was falling behind you in tech all the time (and tech was the decider in the end - your possession of bombers when we had no fighters or sams), there was no way I could invest in episonage against you (or at least I didn't think i could), and I hadn't even had the time to research democracy or communism!

I say your builder beginnins of India gave you such strength, but in fact it was really the cultural position. For without the possibiltiy of a cultural victory, which often has to be planned for fromteh beginning, you would have had to try to attack others, which as you pointed out would have been much harder. It was the fact you could in the end defend for a cultural victory which forced others to have to try an intercontinental invasion against a more advanced enemy which, well, would always need a lot of luck!

[OzzyKP]

I did not know if I could count on someone. I had some ecomomic ccoperation with the Mali, but as you can see on the graph they had one of the weakest military. I was unsure about the Natives untill the very end.. and they only started to build up military in the endgame. (They did really great in the end btw).

I'm not sure how much military they had at the end, or how much they assisted with the war, but I'd like to think I did my part to help prepare. I started building troops, but mostly focused on boosting production. Factories, Pentagon, Mining Inc, and lots of deals set them up at the end. I'm glad to see they were able to get the Dam at the end too.

And as for being unsure about the Natives... I was unsure as well, for the time I had them. My instructions mentioned hostility toward Persia, India & Korea, so I could have gone either way. I even initially contacted Korea about possibly working together, but they responded immediately with hostility. I got no overtures from anyone else in the alliance, so decided to commit to India. Not that I could of course, I handed it back to the original player, but I think the Natives could have been a key tipping point for the Alliance and they failed diplomatically to woo me. Korea in particular did a poor job with diplomacy during my time with the Natives.

[India (DoC)]

I add an other big IF, this one was again unpredicatble by me and that is how strongly you'd co-operate in the game, not just in the war but in the preparation. I saw this kind of co-operation, but it could had been even bigger.
for example: It would had been enough if one of you concentrate on the air defense/offensive, an other on artilleries etc... it might be too much to count on, but it was still a possiblity and then it would had nulify my tech advantage. In the end it was only the flight tech which you did not have and had effect on military and I hadn't have artilleries.
I was wondering why you missed flight, even if you only have fighters those could had intercept my bombers very effectively. (they have 100% chance to intercept)

You said that you hoped that lots of machineguns would help, the truth is their numbers hardly matters. There is 20% chance they intercept, the only thing is that one unit can do it once/turn so better to have more. but it's a low chance. Even antitanks have 30% chance (wondered why you hadn't send even one)

[Rasputin]

ozzy you would never work with me , i cna post the pms sent to you when you joined showing korea asking for a closer ties, but you refused to even answer. you dont like me ozzy you never have and you allwo persoanlity ot interfer in the decisions you make.

As to indias calim he was worried he might lose. you certainyl werent worried which is why you wanted others to attack you, you stopped attacking others.

as to the spies, my turn player used them a lot.

[Rasputin]

I add an other big IF, this one was again unpredicatble by me and that is how strongly you'd co-operate in the game, not just in the war but in the preparation. I saw this kind of co-operation, but it could had been even bigger for example: It would had been enough if one of you concentrate on the air defense/offensive, an other on artilleries etc... it might be too much to count on, but it was still a possiblity and then it would had nulify my tech advantage. In the end it was only the flight tech which you did not have and had effect on military and I hadn't have artilleries.
I was wondering why you missed flight, even if you only have fighters those could had intercept my bombers very effectively. (they have 100% chance to intercept)

You said that you hoped that lots of machineguns would help, the truth is their numbers hardly matters. There is 20% chance they intercept, the only thing is that one unit can do it once/turn so better to have more. but it's a low chance. Even antitanks have 30% chance (wondered why you hadn't send even one)

Bascially 2 nations committed fully to bringing you down the byz didnt. Korea committed outr whole navy and our airships. that wasnt enough for byz he asked for us to send the useless MGers. But as you say none of the anti tank units were landed.

basically you won the battle because byz rushed the attack, used the wrong forces and didnt committ his own troops 100%.

[WarningU2]

Sorry for delay ... I've been very busy at work these last few days and my wife has had a health scare.

The initial send for this was forwarded to Robert earlier this week but it was an odd format. I knew the game was coming to an end so haven't been really focussed on this with all the RL concerns.

I've resent the file to Robert now. Very sorry for the delay. Congratulations to the winner

[Orb (DoC)]

@ India- if it makes you feel better I had at least 1 spy in every one of your cities I also had spies all over Russia, Ottoman, some parts of Persia, Greece, and Byzantine. Unfortunatly I only used a few and only got to poision you oce.

[St Jon]

Ok so what was Koreqas plans and motives all game.

I know you hate ANON but you have illustrated one of the biggest justifications for it in DoC. What can be done to Korea without censure could not be done to Raz or you become a bully. This is a very good reason to never break ANON or you allow OOG reasons to influence sound IG decisions.

[Rasputin]

you have lost me there .....

i dont hate anon but i do see no reason for it especialy when palyers meet for beer and inform each other of who they are.

secondly the anon allowed people to bulyl korea with no justification.

if htere was no anon then it would be harder t odo that.

[Egypt (DoC)]

Sorry for delay ... I've been very busy at work these last few days and my wife has had a health scare.

The initial send for this was forwarded to Robert earlier this week but it was an odd format. I knew the game was coming to an end so haven't been really focussed on this with all the RL concerns.

I've resent the file to Robert now. Very sorry for the delay. Congratulations to the winner

No problem man, we can wait, hope your wife is alright!!!

[Native America (DoC)]

The Natives perspective:

First, we were new to the Diplogame concept.

Second, the native’s terrain seemed overly ‘Impassable Mountain’y

Third we believed the map designer: That each civ could easily build 8 cities.

Unfortunately, for the Natives, and the world later, Korea settled the island to our west, what they called East Province. To us that seemed aggressive: they, the Koreans, already had other areas in which to settle, nor did they talk to us. The effect was that the Natives then needed to expand on their continent fast, north, fast but the land north was not that good.

So when Korea, which had just stolen ‘our’ island, came looking for a diplomatic relationship, the natives were not well disposed.

The net result was that our growth potential was hampered severely. We discussed expansion with the India but they settled a town too far in our area, from our perspective. But because of our limitations we couldn’t do much about it. We received some assurances, from India, about limiting cultural expansion but it meant we needed to look elsewhere for growth.

So eventualy it seemed a good opportunity to colonise the isles to our east, encouraged by India, whom we thought would provide support. But Persia stopped that expansion and India, even if we had asked for assistance, were really in no position to help. (it would have been interesting if we had insisted)

By now, we recognised the limits of India’s support in defence of Sha’ Tao, and Taoist nations, Nil.

So the Korea expansion, combined with India’s Persia’s deal on the New India/Persia isles, ended Native Indian’s potential for alliances, with civs other than India.

Ok, Korea and Persia offered Indians, settlers to barren land northwards and south but growth was slow.

Fourth, by now we reached a good assessment of the tech ability of India.

In short, there was no way we could challenge India, technically or militarily.
.advantage was lost. So no real point to challenge India.

Also India had offered us good tech deal voucher exchanges. But later they were more generous to, we believed, the Mali, than us. Throughout the game, Mali was a strong potential ally but they just didn’t flourish as a civ until late.

Relationships and trade with the other Civs were exploited brilliantly by OzzyKP during his stewardship of the Natives, I should add.

In summary, in my view, Korea’s early greed and Persia’s duplicity, therefore were major factors in curbing Natives willingness to consider alliances against India and therefore to India’s IC win.

But hey that’s life. Good Game.

[Rasputin]

we too need 8 citiys as promised by the map builder , our island home didnt hold that many, and agai nwe did contact all our neighbours early about our expansion to the islands around us. we had no other option but to colonise the islands around us , you had the option to go south as we did eventually and to the islands to the east.

We offered free land in the land we discovered to the south too.

but yep it all my fault apparently.

[deity]

Cyber,

Can we please break anon now and can you post a full list of players (over time inc subs) and the civs they played? I think it better that we de-brief knowing who the players are. And I'm sure that voting will not be effected by it.

Just in case you had nothing to do


And, to butter you up, I must add that the game organisation, monitoring and arbitration were superb. We are so lucky as a group to have you managing all this and hosting as well! I think it is time to give up your day job now... do you have one? Or is baby off to the coal mines already

On top of all this you run Apolyton!

BTW, PYT will take hits away from Polly, maybe you should take him out. I mean over