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The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]
I love the way you post lots of half-truths again, in a long attack on how I have played this game, and then post a quick sentence saying 'let's move on'. Talk about trying to have the last word!
But OK I give in. Have the last word. Proclaim you version of the truth once again if it makes you feel better. I'm sure nobody is interested in what either of us say on this topic and those who once were have long since made up their minds. I'm just sad that after a great game the end has been overshadowed in all these occ attacks and giving up on the game. But, well, its worked so much smoother and with less argument than BtP did, so I will focus on that and be thankful.
And yes I would be happy to have a beer with you. I was worried in teh first version of your post since it said you would be happy to have a bear with me, which I wasn't sure how to interpret! But beer, yes, beer is good.
i dont beleive byz would ever have attacked england if the india war did not hpapen and england lost so many lives.
For info, Ras, you are partially right.
In fact, I was building up to attack England at the time when India launched its wicked and completely unprovoked (but great fun) attack on me - I think that England knew this at the time, it was certainly moving defenders to the front, and was unsupportive in the face of India. In a way the fact I was preparign for war saved me, because it did mean I had some reasonable forces built up, and so was surprisingly able to defeat the Indian invaders. Unfortunately, the losses I suffered against India meant any attack on England was out of the question at that time. It also meant that revenge against India became the higher priority (coupled with the fact that their attack on me proved to me what you who were closer to India perhaps already knew, that they were completely dominant and so only a co-ordinated effort against India would have any hope of challenging them, which in the end in a way we organised those it failed). (Also, I was close to attacking England earlier at the time of the 4/5 small nation attack on them. I would have been very happy to coordinate an attack with them, but they never spoke to me about it, and launched the attack when my army was still overseas facing Russia. Again, I think England knew this because at that time they signed a treaty with Persia for mutual defence if either were attacked me by - talk about surrounded by bigger nations!).
Where you are right, is that in the 24 hours after the failure of the India attack, when Basil died and I rethought - what does this mean for Byzantium? - I realised that there maybe was then a chance to go back to the old enemy of England. Yes, England's losses in that war were significant in that calcualtion, but I had lost lots too - 17 tanks never mind infantry and artillery. To be honest more to the point was that while I was still on full military production England had stopped. I was producing three tanks a turn, and it was producing nothing. So by four or five turns later there was a massive inbalance in forces.
We are not going to see those events the same, I'm sure, and I'm not trying to argue the point, just answer your interesting question from my perspective. The important point for me, which I know others see differently, is that the India attack was completely genuine (unlike Persia's, you scheming *******) - it was designed to bring down an Indian tower, not to kill English troops to facilitate an attack on them, but yes once the smoke cleared I then did see an opportunity partly because of the scale of English losses and, as I say, the fact that they weren't building any new troops.
So Raz says that once I got the lead the game was decided-which is too easy to say-, it's never that simple.. there were critical points/moments and I had to be really carefull in planning.
At the time I had attacked Byz my technological lead was huge, mostly because I was able to go on a path which accelerated my research, other civs had the same potential or even more-if the game would have last longer I may had lost my tech lead, there would had been several reason for that, once I may write something about how my economy worked.. in the end I was close to go bankrupt
I wanted a challenging game. First I thought I might use my tech lead to go aggressive and wage war everywhere on earth.. but this just can not work. Even that war against Byzantium cost too much. I slaved/drafted my population, spent lots of money on upgrading-I did not expect any gain from that war except my plan to turn the top civs against myself so it could help forming ballanced blocks against each other. The problem was that I couldnt just make an other army any time soon to be able to attack somewhere and defend the homeland at the same time. I saw then that in the end I will be the defender so I tried to get enemies ..-without overdoing it.. but at that time I was really ahead.. it was hard to estimate how long I can secure this lead, how many of my enemies would actually turn against me.. or maybe they just ignore me and kill each other.
about those critical moments/things:
-When Persia has attacked the Natives soon after my war with Byz I had to step in, threaten Persia with war unless they compensate the Natives..it was just a bluff.. a war then could had result me losing New India. I had no army there at all..a few warriors only and not even a chance to fortify it.. I just lost my armies and no longer could leave the homeland undefended.
-After the war many nations closed their borders with me, it was a significant loss. (I had 4 trade routes per city while the rest of the world max 2.). If a few more closes his borders I may had been forced to switch to mercantilism, which is much worse than free market, but fortunately it was not necessary, some even reopened his borders later.
-There was a time period when my enemies/or future enemies ruled the seas. Once I was very close to attack Korea (just a small lesson nothing more ), but his alone fleet was 3-4 times stronger than mine.. if an alliance would had come that time, even just for blockde it would had been quite bad for me.
-Remember the Greek conflict? the big powers intervened and suddenly India too announced that they can not stand the unjustice against the poor Greek. There was something what India really wanted that time-which may not be seem as a huge thing but I think I would had lost the game without it. And it was a great merchant which more specificaly led to the Sushi corporation. I offered a voucher, troops and our assistance, but after some ooc complains I withdrew. I knew how important that corporation is in my strategy, but I did not want to reveal it and did not want to continue the dispute. Later I got lucky and got a merchant myself at 40% chance.
-Since the alliance just didn't want to form -or at least I did not see-I tried to turn England against me too.. it wasn't easy . I was not sure if it's already too much..
I did not know if I could count on someone. I had some ecomomic ccoperation with the Mali, but as you can see on the graph they had one of the weakest military. I was unsure about the Natives untill the very end.. and they only started to build up military in the endgame. (They did really great in the end btw).
Very interesting India. Thank you. In part it does show how important the bluff is. I certainly fell to a bluff from Persia in my old conflict with Russia. Particlarly when you are technologically advanced, its easy to see you as superpowered, although in fact the Civ engine is careful to avoid giving too much advantaged to more developed units (the only tanks vs warrior 'problem') as our conflict when you invaded demonstrated. The only things I would add, which perhaps you are about to, if the almost impossibility of attacking across the sea, which meant your relationship with the Mali and Natives was key, and very successfully handled on your part.
As i said the game was over . Indias description jsut describe his own self beleif in how good he is by trying to turn others agaisnt him . but also knowing full well that Attacking in Civ is not easy , defending is easier.
So for all of indias attempts to be invaded he still knew he couldnt lose
Hoepfuly civ 5 comes up with a much better combat system.
GM of MAFIA #40 ,#41, #43, #45,#47,#49-#51,#53-#58,#61,#68,#70, #71
It really seemed that Persia only cares about New India. I could had just give it up, bring the troops back, and concentrate on the victory condition. They really sent me the english/byzantne plans on attacking me, but it was not a surprise then (except how confident they were ). As a matter of fact at that time I was at full alert and producing units at full speed.. from the moment I saw the upgraded Persian army, so actually it was them who "woke me up"
I did not want to give up the colonies, because 1, lots of fish came from there, and 2, there was a possibility that after Persia got New India He would still send his armies against the homeland (and 3, I just did not want to "lose" one of my big enemy and give them what they want so easily )
At the second war we wrote earlier how close we were to make peace by me giving up the less important cities.. fortunately the attack against the shrine came earlier than I could had evacute my troops and I got lucky.
I wrote about the shrine attack earlier. IF I wouldnt had destroy those Byzantine transports, IF they produce troops even harder and hold back nothing (on the power graph you can see that there were reserves), IF they manage to convince Persia to threaten my homeland too, IF they use a smaller civ or two (getting Egypt into the alliance upgrading his troops for example) etc.. it may had worked differently..probably..
Something about spies: I was surprised that my enemies hardly used them. I was poisoning their capital, made them revolt, stole 5-6 techs in the game etc. It's a very dangerous tool and even smaller civs in the alliance could had caused significant damage to me.
Persia used spies to revolt me out from slavery which hurt the first time, was not so bad in the second time and I was dissapointed that He didn't do the third time.. I had counted on it damn it . I think those kind of revolts are a bad feature in civ, they could really screw someone so actually I'm very glad you did not use it at full potential.
Good...
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