Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread VI]

[Pitboss Rome]

It is an interesting to reflect on the diffiulty in keeping the end part of a game good for the majority. As I see it the problem is basically just that it takes so long. People are writing as if Rome's victory has been an obvious reality for ages, and so its boring. The fact is that only a month ago I was in a desparate war. If Portugal had attacked me then as according to Sparta they had agreed to, I would have collapsed completely. Instead Portugal held off, and is likely to pay for that by me stealing a space ship victory from them. I only build the Apollo about 15-20 turns ago, which is a tiny period in this game. I have never thought it a remote possibility for me, and since conquest is impossible in this game, for months it had appeared that the only possible outcomes were Meduia's SS or Portugals. But then a new possiblity opened up.

Saying all that, I can whole-heartedly see that for those nations not involved (basically Meduia since the amount of diplo flowing back and forth between nations on my continent at the moment is huge) a month of logging in to see someone else's victory very slowly emerge is tedious in the extreme. Although, given most seem to have been invovled in the attempted Religious Victory which has only failed this turn, we are not actually talking about that long.

But, the point still remains I think of how, in the end game when the possibilities do narrow down, the game remains enjoyable for all. I remember querying how diplo games end six months ago, wondering whether the truth was that they fell apart for understandable reasons. I was told in no uncertain terms that the end game worked fine, although people could only quote me one example (when Ozzy won a Space victory if I remember right. Many a topic for another time, but I do recognise that things do seem to close down at the end, or maybe the truth is that a game lasting for over a year is just too long.

[Robert]

Another reason for the pause is the fact that Portugal and Khmer still haven't been played by their new subs.

But we can just continue the game and ignore all vacant positions.
I just hope that people will grab themselves together and finish this game.

[Pitboss Maya]

Toni, I will rule portugal with a iron fist......

btw I do feel a bit pushed from side to side. (Playing with maya was a briliant experience thanks guys :-)

[Pitboss Japan]

The fact is that only a month ago I was in a desparate war. If Portugal had attacked me then as according to Sparta they had agreed to, I would have collapsed completely. Instead Portugal held off, and is likely to pay for that by me stealing a space ship victory from them.

It was a bad move from Portugal. We told him what will happen and they not only lost the chance to weaken a strong rival, but they lost all their friends/allies. Heck, I may have sent forces to aid Rome to stop the portugal spaceship if it was necessary

About continue/not continue.. i'm among that 5 who still plays but many much more imprtant civs are not. And Japan have no interest to stop Rome from wining (not that we have a chance )-why would we.. to help the Portugals win? no way.. btw the portugals if i understand well subbed by Greece who is the vassal of Rome.. this is non sense...
So we can play we can stop, wont make much difference.
I'll be here

[Robert]

Ok, let's continue this game then.
We're not going to stop for vacant civs anymore.

Game's up.

[Robert]

btw the portugals if i understand well subbed by Greece who is the vassal of Rome

I'm not subbing for Portugal, Kees is. He and me agreed upon the Samos coup. I executed with his approval b/c he was not able to play (traveling from Netherlands to Greece) (yes, Kees lives in Greece )

[Pitboss Rome]

btw the portugals if i understand well subbed by Greece who is the vassal of Rome

I don't think that is the case, it certainly shouldn't be. Is it? I have heard all sorts of rumours of people subbing for someone elese for months without it being public, which completely destroys diplomacy which is what this is meant to be about. In the future we really do need to have a constantly updated list of who is actually playing which nation.

(Otherwise I agree with what you say Japan, though not as sure as you that my neighbours wouldnt have a chance of stopping me - Portugal hugely exceeds me on power, and Greece has massed modern armour - but I hope you are right.)

[Toni]

True be told Rome i think you are starting to give yourself too much credit for the current situation. Portugal for the last 150-200 turns had one thing in goal that was to prepare and start a war with Khmer - hell they were my main rivals for 2/3 of the game (and sadly the OOC competition that we have with Deity). Yes i also wanted to try and build the SS as well, which i guess i will fail. Still that was a secondary objective - a trophy. Damn if i really wanted it so much i would have concentrated on SS techs much earlier and taken the internet as well if i wanted. NO i wanted military techs and war with Khmer. A peace with Khmer 30 turns ago would have given my 7-8 unhappiness (due to the statue of Z which Khmer has) back to my main cities and boosted sci, production and cash. I will say it again I saw Rome as a winner long time ago due to his high vote scoring. Thus i only had left was to dominate the game militarily which i did at the time of my leave and seek to attack Khmer.

I read people like japan and yourself saying that i made some bad decisions, well NO. My only goal towards Rome was to keep them at peace with me. So i can play my 1 vs 1 with Khmer. Sadly the original player left. Yes Greece wanted me to attack Rome together with them, but i knew if that happened Khmer would have runned with the SS victory.

Also i had other reasons for not wanting to attack Rome - and that has to do with the first Rome they had against me in the ancient era. Actually and that is only me saying it. That first war which Her the original player had against Portugal gave the win which Rome will enjoy now. I told and tried telling people that a strong Rome if they took what they wanted form Portugal then will be unstoppable, but not one listened, because they were blinded by the stupid scoring table and Portugal's lead at that time - no one saw the bigger picture.

Of course I am only human so i took the whole situation too personal and when the time came and people realized the monster they let blossom they started calling and trying to counter it. Sadly due to my disappointment and again human only nature i which i guess was the only ONE able to really turn and help any possible conflict against Rome declined every time people came to ask me to join against Rome. Sh..t I even helped them defend that first great invasion giving them advanced techs.

That is Portugal's story - yes it has its goods and bads. I AGREE there is much to blame me for this whole situation, my greatest problem is that i mix too much IC with OOC (I am sorry!!)

Of course the credit i gave to the two roman players H and Priest is still on the table - great players which fully deserve the win here.

I have no regrets - well maybe one - that is not having Khmer closer to me. Still that distance maybe saved us all from them in the early part when they were dominating the game!!

Please do not take the above too seriously - again it takes much to do what Rome has achieved and I salute him for using his masterful twists, skills and tricks which brought him to his success today.

I only hope that the Priest will honor us in the next DIPLO game so we can fully enjoy his skills from turn 1 (I hope the new Maya, Russia, Spain and Japan will be there and have their chances to fully shine form turn 1 as well.)

[Robert]

I told and tried telling people that a strong Rome if they took what they wanted form Portugal then will be unstoppable, but not one listened, because they were blinded by the stupid scoring table and Portugal's lead at that time - no one saw the bigger picture.

Hey, I deserve some credits there
I have attacked Rome 4 times, I have always said that Rome was going to win!
I tried but I failed

i which i guess was the only ONE able to really turn and help any possible conflict against Rome declined every time people came to ask me to join against Rome.

Uh, no, you agreed to help me!

I even helped them defend that first great invasion giving them advanced techs.

You gave Rome gunpowder during the mayan/greece/piercia vs rome war!

Please do not take the above too seriously

I love rambling about the game I'll throw in my stuff later
Feel free to do so. I think a lot you say is true. You did indeed focus more on the Khmer then on Rome. Though that's also a choice. Otherwise perhaps the Khmer would have ran away. And not to mention that Rome had to deal with those pesky Spartans all the time.

I only hope that the Priest will honor us in the next DIPLO game so we can fully enjoy his skills from turn 1 (I hope the new Maya, Russia, Spain and Japan will be there and have their chances to fully shine form turn 1 as well.)

100% agree!

[Pitboss Rome]

Toni,

I completely agree with that you say. The way I see it it confirms what i was trying to say, which is that people are mistaken if now they think that Rome has been dominant throughout the game in game. Far from it. At this last moment, because of all sorts of dynamics (particlarly the Khmer-Portugal one, which I of course have been happy to do all I could to keep stoked) there is actually the possibility of a Roman IG win - only a possibility mind - and it was only 20 turns ago that I began to think that there migth be a possibility.

As for the next Diplo game. Well yes I intend to be part of it, but I am sure that this has been (a) beginniners luck and (b) very much down to the great foundation Hericlitus laid, so I fully expect to lurk at the bottom.

[St Jon]

Rome - Lower your Firewall or I will sit you on a hastae velitares!

[St Jon]

It is sad that IG and OOC issues have clouded BtP and how badly they have impacted on the strategy and tactics of many players. There seems to have been a weird attitude amongst a lot of people that it was more important to stop someone else winning than on pursuing their own success.

I did see Rome as the only winner, before maybe he did, as his production dwarfed Portugal, Khmer or Greece. Portugal could have stopped it at the height of the Korean War by cutting Rome in half but that was the last chance. That is actually a side issue - Rome was always likely to win because he has been the best player!

[Toni]

Jon:

You make a good point.

Still i disagree with the below.

I did see Rome as the only winner, before maybe he did, as his production dwarfed Portugal, Khmer or Greece.

Keep in mind that Portugal wasn't too far below Rome's production, I gave up on concentrating to continue boosting it 90% of my cities did not have nuc or hydro plants. Something which you forgot or failed to mention is that Portugal maybe had around 7-8 cities out producing or at worse equal to Rome's capital. With the Kremlin i could have out produced militarily everyone if i wanted. Actually my military showed it - never fully turned to fully building armies it was still on the top for the best part of the end game.

Again you are right that at the end rome had more hammers than Portugal - but when you have 60+ cities against my 20 and we are still close with the hammer output. Oh my can you imagine the cities i had and their capabilities. Still that doesn't count for the end results. Just wanted say that you were incorrect to say what you did. At the time you joined Rome was was behind in production - so what you saw wasn't possible to be seen.
My 2 cents!

[Robert]

Too bad that Rome and Portugal never clashed
Maybe next game!

I'm honestly always awed by how Toni ALWAYS manages to create such powerful civs.
I bet he beats deity level before brackfast.
I'm curious how Rome will do next game. His 60+ cities show that he's a great warrior, he won every war.

deity is also a very good player, always near the top. Too bad he had to leave for vacation.
And Ozzy managed to get into the top-4 from a very bad position.

Russia did very good managing Russia. (of course he had some help from Master Stalin who was the only world leader to ever bring Rome on it's knees 8))
Japan also made something about even more backwards Japan.

Ok, I'm not going to say something about everybody I'm sorry
But I'm looking forward to Aussie Lurker also participating in story telling. And of course much respect to all those civs who stayed with us from the beginning while it must have been pretty boring now and then. (America, Natives, Celts)

And thanks to the subs who brought new blood into the game! Not easy to get that late into an established game, especially one that's being plagued by fights and quits

And to all the TOP CIVS: TAKE MORE RISKS! You lazy war-avoiding boring bunch of GIRLS

[Toni]

Thanks Robert for the compliment - i should be honest with you it is nice hearing them now and then.

You forgot something very important and that was to mention your great leap forward since the older games.

This was your strongest game and I am very happy to see you grow so much as a player. It is no secret that you are one of the best story tellers and for me the best Map or screen shot poster. Well Ozzy comes close to you when he feels creative as well.

I was only saddened to see you make that tactical miscalculation against Rome, when you prepared that so well planned invasion of Rome but without the support of any Bombers.

Also you are right to say that the bigger civs didn't took more risk, especially Portugal and Khmer.

Well i can speak for myself - i should have tried more. I tried in the very early stages of the game to push rome more into the south but due to the luck of the GODS my axeman failed to kill a warrior with the odds of 99.99% and take or raze their northern settlement. You were there you know

After that I had some chances to attack when Rome was weak - but i was at a crossroad - i knew very well if i attack Rome in the early mid game i will miss the opportunity to steal New Portugal for myself. It was either fight rome and anchor myself for many years in my start location or play nice with Rome and expand to New Portugal - well you all know what i decided to do.

Also if i attacked Rome - no way i was to be safe after that possible war and look outward to new lands. I can reasure you having your civ split in two parts is hard to defend. Also as Rome knew and we talked about it many times - 80% roughly of my production was coming from N portugal. On the other hand 80% of my sci was coming from Old Portugal. Okward situation - as Rome used to say - well Portugal i see that you need me to defend your sci cities, thus more reason for our friendship. Our relation was complex but needed for both sides.

What I have to say for Deity:

Well only good things for this game - he really mastered a powerful civ from early on. He lately has established a solid startegy by using the (I forgot the name) the wonder which gives you another 50% boost to a golden age. Well what can i say the basterd is getting harder and harder to play against with.

About: Ozzy

Well most of us should be greatful that he didn't felt like putting all in it in the first 2/3 of the game. We all saw well i read about it that when he puts his mind into it and skills he nearly shocked us all at the end. So yea thank you Ozzy for being busy and bored in the beggining. Mr Youth Rights is deadly when he wishes to be.

I like Robert will noT try and describe all the players: it will take me just too long. But i will say this: I REALLY REALLY HOPE THAT THE CURRENT PLAYERS OF ROME, RUSSIA, JAPAN, MAYA, SPAIN HONOR US IN THE ENXT GAME!!!!

No i have not forgotten the Celts (which if i could will reward with the most reliable medal). Aslo Warningu2 (the America player), Beta (HRE), The Natives (my buddy from SF CA) and last but not least i hope Classical Hero will consider returning for next game - i feel strongly that he is a great addition - still should work on not giving up and stay playing with us. I haven't forgotten Pinchak and Capo/ sorry for bringing you so late into my posting. I hope you guys join us in the next Diplo.