Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[Pitboss Rome]

I accept the reasons for temporarily pausing the game - we need to avoid getting into the place again of arguments about reloads.

I must admit I don't really understand the problem now.
There was the

• original allegation of foul play in relation to the cease-fire. This was shown to be false - in that there was no foul play, just an unusual game-mechanic - but we reloaded, twice, to get it right. Issue closed.
• There was the double-move claim, which was shown to be true according to the written rules, and the judgement of the judges was implemented. Issue closed.
• I can't get to the bottom of what written rule is meant to have been broken now.

But I must admit I am so fed up with it all, I can't be bothered trying to re-read ever post and piece together the contortions. I can see lots of anger and distrust, lots of frustration at how things have worked out, lots of attempts to go back to the issues which have already been judged on, lots of trickery, ruses and surprises. But since the judges judged on the last problem - what written rule has been broken and by whom? (or is the claim that the judgmenet wasn't followed?).

If Capo wants to accept the offer which CS has made about moving troops in and out of the city, fine - not for me to comment.

Otherwise, I suggest we do the same as before. Is it reasonable for Maya and Capo to query whether the case gets fairly heard because CS is one of the parties, so Ozzy, please sort some judgements quickly. Leave the game paused until they report (please within 24 hours if not sooner) and lets get back to civ.

I also am in the middle of a war.

[MMC]

I am one of the few who could benefit from a reload (and I don't mean leveling the playing field, I mean a noticeable gain), yet I'd have to say no to reloading. There are several players (such as Rome and Russia) who would NOT benefit from a reload. Especially one that jumps back by several turns.

I believe the current claim isn't that another rule was broken, nor that the judgment wasn't followed, but that Cyber used the confusion of the reload to his own advantage. In my opinion, the best compromise would be for Cyber to stick to the concessions he has already agreed to make (including regarding the GE, so no Golden Age), and also that someone else host, at least for a short time. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to let a Crazy Dutchman™ (*) loose with the admin controls at the moment.

(*) We loves ya really, Cyber

[Robert]

but that Cyber used the confusion of the reload to his own advantage.

No, I have not.
But I have learned from experiences that it is impossible to defend myself against such claims.

What I have done is starting fake peace-negotiations with Maya/Korea, in which I promised them that much that they were both interested. They even wanted to delay the war 1 turn and keep the GE in hostage, to use it in these peace negotiations.

Then I stopped these negotiations when I was ready (and the judge judgements had been fullfilled, ie: offering GE to Korea (who kept it in hostage), declared full war (See fancy video I shot of myself as Orestes that nobody of you cared to comment on ) and they started to panic. (and went back to their usual strategy: "If I can't win I'll blame CyberShy for cheating") (3rd time: 1st was map-cheating, which didn't happen, then there was the false cease-fire, which was a game bug, and now there is this 'CyberShy just cheat in some way' which is again not true. The only time they were 'right' was when they used a 'legal double move exploit' (words of Maya) that was acceptable to the very literal strict letter of the rules. (but against the spirit!).

Conclusion: when they pull false peace negotiations on me (in a far far far more betrayal way!) all is fine. When I return it tad bit on them heaven is too small.

But I have an overhand so big right now b/c of Maya mistakes and Korea's uberweakness that I am willing to give in for a 2nd time* and move half my army out of knossos to give Korea a chance to lose it's entire army gainst half my army. Fine with me.

*1st time was when I did not move/upgrade at all around knossos for 1 turn to give Korea a chance to keep up.

And yes, I know that I can type as much detailled explanations as possible, I will always come out of bad guy for some way.
I don't know, maybe it's better to become a ultra-nutscase and a borderliner hate-player as well.

[Pitboss Khmer]

Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

I'm happy to go back to the turn before Korea declared war so that Maya and Korea can play out their original strategy before this circus started. It is the only pure answer. Otherwise the game is gradually dieing and we have all put too much into it for that to happen.

The rest of us get disadvantaged but the game recovers with a pre-war reload..

[Pitboss Khmer]

Cyber, I think you trying to out diplo Korea with false peace proposals is tainted by the OOC circumstances where Korea and Maya and Sparta started to contrive things and bring in judges to work out a fair balance etc etc. I'm sorry if I also encouraged a false history to develop.

Please don't debate each point of every post.

Just kill it and set up the correct reload.

Do the right thing and go back to that point.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Game should be reloaded CyberShy. I am tired of this broken record already!

[Robert]

reload means:
*Korea and maya will not fall again for fake peace negotions
*maya will not make same mistakes again.
*i will lose my GA

Thus forget it.
If you all continue listening to korea maya crap i stop this game forever. I am done giving in to these two sore losers

[The Capo]

This has nothing to do with the fact that I (or we) are "sore losers." I think everyone here knows well that I am quite used to losing. I think you personally are so blinded by your own desire to "win" this game, in whatever way you think you will, that you have fooled yourself into thinking what you have done so far is right.

You have basically, by your own actions, attempted to make me look bad when all of my requests have been perfectly legitimate, and to make matters worse they all fall in line with RULES THAT YOU WROTE YOURSELF. You let an in-game plot damage the game in an OOC fashion, maybe I reacted in a bad way to it, but I was angry that you have been doing this, I was angry that I was getting bad responses (even though I was right the entire time) and then when I attempted to try and bring things back to a normal level (i.e. giving you a turn to organize yourself and giving you a way to continue our war and save your GE) you took full advantage. The difference was our plot against you was an in-game/in-character ploy. You taking advantage of me (for a second, no wait, third, or is that fourth time?) was completely done OOC and in extremely poor taste. If you can't realize the difference between manipulating someone in-game, and manipulating the game itself as well as another player OOC then you have NO BUSINESS WHAT-SO-EVER HOSTING A GAME EVER AGAIN.

You have basically taken advantage to the point that our plan is basically ruined, and now you are so angry and resentful that there is never going to be a purely "normal" end to this situation.

And to respond to your issues with a reload (which are all personal towards Greece alone, and clearly greedy on his part);

1) "Korea and Maya will not fall again for the same peace mistakes" - of course we wouldn't, the only reason we entertained it was because we felt bad for you and wanted the game to return to normal again. Hell, we didn't even actually 'fall for it', I denied it and sent you a scathing letter demanding more of your cities (why don't you ever admit the FULL truth in your posts here?), it was only after that that I sent you an OOC PM telling you that if you needed a turn of no-war I would abide by it so long as you agreed to move your GE to the hills between Maya and Korea where he won't be killed. I said if you agreed I wouldn't kill him on the turn I was going to and you AGREED. Then you went against this and snuck him away. You are a lying ****. Nobody fell for anything, we just actually thought you were a better person despite your constant cheating and attempts at manipulation.

2) "Maya will not make same mistakes again" - I actually don't know what you are referring to here, but okay.

3) "I will lose my GE" - Yeah, and you should have TWICE!

Now despite the fact that I have been wronged by you multiple times you are the one threatening to stop the whole game? That's ridiculous Cyber. There are 17 other players in the game and you are going to take it upon yourself to end it? At least Maya just said he'd quit, you are talking about stopping the game completely. Stop throwing a tantrum over a ****ing videogame. Its not a big deal man, its just a game. But you have to play by the rules, especially when you made them.

[Pitboss Portugal]

So what is the verdict here guys?

Reload and maybe set it on a shorter timer so we can catch up quicker maybe loss CS in the process?
Continue and loss Maya/Capo?
Start looking for new people?

What?

Having the game paused is resolving nothing and will definitely start pissing other people. And the majority didn't spend 8 months to come down to such an ending. One of the two sides will need to give in if this is to go somewhere! Too much testosterone....

[OzzyKP]

Fine... we vote.

Yes, reload to 1630.
Portugal
Khmer
Korea
Maya

No, don't reload, keep playing.
Funglish
Rome
Greece
Japan
Natives

Abstain.
Metalheads
Celts

[Robert]

So we make it a stupid vote instead of looking at what is going on here?

[Pitboss Portugal]

Looking at the situation what is there else we can do CyberShy?

All three threaten to leave the game, this is a dead end. Something has to give?

Sad thing is the 3 people will destroy it for 15 more, talk about poor form here. And i do not care who is responsible. We are over this, much has been said already +100 posts. Enough with it, lets move one and heal the wounds.

I personally hate reloads, but voted for one. Just so this s..t can end.

For the record you have never quit a game, unlike some of the other parties in this fight. So stick it out.

[Pitboss Rome]

It there is a vote, well fair enough I guess.

Genuinely though I would still appreciate someone explaining briefly what rule is claimed to have been broken.

Deceit, untrustworthiness, trickery, exploitation I can understand all of them, but they are not against the rules. The ruling previously was that while something was against the spirit, generally not accepted, seen as bad form etc., it wasn't against the written rules so it was a 'legal exploit' and no action would be taken.

The game was back on track 24 hours ago - people might not have been happy, but we were moving again and then ... well - what happened? What rule was broken?

[Robert]

perhaps you can look at the facts and at the way both 'groups' have been willing to cooperate. Or at how both have been trying to come with solutions. You can also look at how easy some of us have called 'cheater' to others. You can look at how some people tried to let this game work. Perhaps look at how often ie the maya have cheated in this game and how willing they were back then to cooperate.

If all of that doesn't help then I can only conclude that I must be very hated by all of you for reasons I don't know.

[Pitboss Japan]

I dont think the game should have been stopped especially if you are the one at war. let the game continue.