Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[The Capo]

So basically you guys have just decided to blatantly continue with no consideration for the rules at all, or the comments of independents? Fantastic.

**** all of you *******s.

[Toni]

If majority agrees I will host this game as soon as I'm home (couple of hours)

But
#1 decide on a leader. A leader is needed in this kinda situations. And all players must promise on before hand to accept the decision of the leader in these situations. The leader must promise to investigate a situation before he judges

#2 make clear double move rules (or remove it alltogether). I have made a proposal (see start post of this thread)

Great if you load it up soon.

#1 Rome
#2 Didn't you already update that rule.

[Robert]

Rome is a good choice indeed. I support.
I have updated the rule. I hope that all think it's good as it is, if not, let me know.

I can start the game in 2 hours.
Like I said, Capo, I hope that you will continue with us.
I am once again offering you to tone (?) down the defence of Knossos to let you attack it with your original stack.

Is there anything else you feel that is a disadvantage to you by continueing the 1665 save?
Let me know, I am willing to find a solution.

[Pitboss Persia]

Hello guys.

Basically, I don't enjoy the game anymore. The current troubles are only amplifying that feeling. I'm out of the game. I have multiple reasons for that decision and I won't change my mind.

I may play my turns until you find a sub, but that's it.

[MMC]

Ok... with 3 people out, and at least one more on the fence (plus threats to leave from other players), I'm going to reiterate my suggestion from before:

I suggest the following:

• No one quit just because they're frustrated...
• Make sure the saves for 1630 onwards are all archived and accessible for the future.
• Put this game on hold indefinitely.
• Organise a new game for those of us who would rather play Civ than argue.
• Come back to this in a year or so, when all have calmer heads and decide how we want to continue.

...

IF you take all the saves from 1630 onwards and zip or rar them up, and put them somewhere safe, we can all return later in the year with clearer heads, and then decide how we want to proceed. I'm sure even the committed players would welcome a break from this game, and especially a break from this argument.

Every game is a learning experience, and this one more than most. This was the first pitboss game, the first with a full house (18 players), the first DiploGame for many of the players. We've learned that some players prefer to use diplomacy outside of the game as well as inside, and others prefer clear, unshakable rules outside, that provide defined boundaries inside the game. We've found the 18 players is perhaps too many, especially if we wanted to use the full abilities that this game offers to us (colonies, etc).

Now, I'm willing to continue, but I'd rather continue with the players I started with, the ones I made deals and plans with. This then leaves three options which I think people need to make a decision on. And I'm including Tony (Capo), Pinchak, and the others who have expressed a desire to leave.

1. Continue with players missing and limp along to the end.
2. Put this game aside, and return in a year or so when we can look at our notes and say "What the hell was I thinking?"
3. End the charade now and vote on a winner.

Personally I'm thinking option B is the best plan, because it means we won't lose the 8 months already invested in the game, but we should ideally be able to look at the game abstractly, and no-one should be put out too much if we then decide to use the 1635 save, or the 1650 save, or whatever.

In the mean time, let's take a break from this game, and hopefully from this argument. No more arguments, let's just make a simple decision.

Voted for A:

Voted for B:
MMC
The Capo
CyberShy
OzzyKP

Voted for C:

[The Capo]

Since I am not in the game right now, and I'm only doing this for MMC I am going to vote for B.

[Robert]

B:
A year is too much.
A month or 2 weeks may be a good start.

I agree that we should try to continue with everybody on board.

[OzzyKP]

B.

But only if we get the old gang back together. If everyone leaves anyway, then there is no reason not to just keep going now.

[Robert]

I've asked FF and WarningU2 to consider to continue this game with us.
I think it makes no sence to start the game now, let's first try to get as much as possible people back first.

[Pitboss Japan]

a lot of things can happen in a year or even 2 weeks so if we go that rout I will not play. but I have another idea. why not just start freash with a new game on a premade map with what is left of the ppl who still want to play.

[Pitboss Rome]

Very hard to follow this now with two threads being used for the same argument!

My position is that I will not continue playing a game in which two people have held the game to ransom, refused to accept the majority vote because it went against them, and continue arguing until the host leaves. And doing all that in the most unpleasant, personally offensive, angry and aggressive posts. I'm not saying this as part of an argument now, just as a simple statement of fact. If that is the way the community has worked in this case, then I have no confidence that it will not work in the same way in future cases, and therefore I will put no more time into the game to see it just ruined in the future.

What I find particularly difficult is the way there has been all this bending over backwards, lots of concern, endless arguments because some people threatened to leave, while others leave and that is OK because they are new people. If that is how this community works, its not for me.

I don't see any reason for this game to collapse. We restarted perfectly satisfactorily (even is some were unhappy) a few days ago, and only hit a problem when there was confusion over whether Maya was still playing or not, and then CS's connection fell over. We can carry on from there, which is what almost everyone not involved in this argument thought we were doing anyway. Yes there will be some gaps, and we will have to work - together - pleasantly - for the good of the game - to fill them.

I understand what MMC is suggesting, but wouldn't support it myself. We shouldn't kid ourselves - if we stop now, this game isn't going to be resurrected. So why don't we - the vast majority who have nothign to do with this silly argument - simply carry on. CS just load the game.

(OK I have just read the post CS made while i was typing this. Yes I would agree lets try to pursuade people to come back, but I think we are only going to do that if we have a fixed offer. i.e. we will restart in 24 or 48 hours, come back and join us. Come back but we are still debating and discussing how or when we will restart isn't going to get us anywhere.)

[Robert]

@Japan/Rome: What if I start the game now, and let the next turn take 48 hours.
In those 48 hours (or 72) we can try to get everybody back in and have some time to chill.

We close the org/arg threads temporarily.
When all players ended their turn the turn will automaticly continue.

Would everybody agree with that?
I'm in a pm-conversation with The Capo now trying to find a solution that suits both.

[Pitboss Rome]

(written before the CS post immeidately above this)
Indeed, to continue, I think the most important thing is to get some positive momentum now. We must get this going again, and demonstrate that we are past this argument, and be able to be clear with folks who has left. If the game is going forward, positively, someone can sub to keep the odd civ going on, and then we can say 'look its over, we are going forward, you civ is still in good shape, come back'. More delay now just makes the idea of coming back/staying even less attractive. I would very much want the folks back - I am very sad that my neighbour FF has left - but we need to be realistic that more talk and delay will do more harm than good.

[Pitboss Rome]

CS - I think that your suggestion is a great idea. Lets get the game loaded and running again - positive action - positive momentum - but yes give this turn a longer timer to allow some space.

I would be very pleased if you and Capo can find a solution, but with all respect to both of you can you (a) do it privately, I am fed up of the argument just like most people are and (b) don't try suggesting that the rest of us should be inconvenienced (more delay reloads etc.) so you two can sort your problem. (OK that probably sounds harsh, but I am sure you understand what I mean).

[MMC]

B:
A year is too much.
A month or 2 weeks may be a good start.

I agree that we should try to continue with everybody on board.

Ideally you'd want a minimum of about 6 months, to give people enough time to be distracted by other games, etc. Then they be able to return and make a (hopefully) more objective decision - IE What's better for the game and the community rather than what's better for themselves... And I'm including you and Tony and Pinchak in that.

EDIT: Cross-Posting Mayhem