Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[Pitboss Khmer]

I'll pause the game again after Rome is done doing his turn

Seriously, don't hold up the game. My mind is made up.

ozzy or someone might have fun with my civ. Note that it has an incredible Corporation - look carefully at the screens. At zero science it still researches pretty good. I had a deal with America (10 gpt as an insurance premium) to get Anchorage if Khmer lost its Aluminuim (use a CreateCon to get its culture up to get the mineral). And give the city back to America when not needed OR trade for "Up Ur Anium" How appropriate....

[Robert]

Seriously, don't hold up the game. My mind is made up.

Yes, I'm going to hold the game till you're back.
Take as much time as you need, we'll be waiting for you.

Regarding the Double Move Rule, Rome and me suggest something like:

- we remove the 6 hour rule
- from now on all warring parties must obey the turn order
- we're going to sub for all not-playing civs (Maya, England)
- We put the turn timer on 48 or 72 hours during war to give everybody time to finish turns while obeying the turn order
- turns won't have to be long if everyone just plays in time (hence the subbing for Maya/England)

All please agree, and also: do we agree with Jeroen's friend taking over England? And who wants to sub for Maya?

[Pitboss Rome]

Khmer,

I'm really sorry that you feel that you have to leave us. I agree with what you have said that you have always acted in the interests of the game, and have been a great player.

I have no way of knowing whether your accusation that this was a deliberately contrived situation was true or not. I can't quite see it myself because when Portugal moved the transport into range of the city and the airship in 1826 he wouldn't have known that timer and hence the start of 1828 were going to be delayed, so he would have been assuming that you were going to play first in 1828, not that he would have had a second move. But you two obviously know each other far better than I do, and clearly seem to have an insight into each other's minds.

My main point though is that this isn't just a game between you and Portugal. These conflicts always seem to turn into a head-to-head clash between two players, when in fact there are lots of other people around and lots of other possibilities for the future. If the whole game has become for you a battle between you and Portugal, then I can see that this might make you want to leave, but is that all BtP is - a battle betwen you and Portugal with the rest of us as bit-parts? Maybe the personal history between you means it is, it just seems a shame.

Won't you reconsider?

[Pitboss Portugal]

I had an Airship in Nuremberg quite deliberately; I would have spotted the transport/units; I would have airlifted one Modern Armour if I saw the Portuguese approaching. He knows this and is taking full advantage of this contrived double move while I was asleep. Its a big deal because it's my Aluminium city.

If i can ask how would you have spotted my transport? Oh i forgot Deity sees the future in his dreams, and can read people's thoughts. What all the sudden right in that very turn you would have had the revelation "Oh no smells like the Portuguese are coming to take my little city, lets go and scout the 180 degree sea approach to my city" Yeah right Deity! You only have to blame yourself for you poor game strategy leaving such an important city undefended.

and always acted in the best interests of the game which conflicted with Khmer's advantages.

You mean you wanted to say how hard you tried to buy/bribe out everyone on your continent? Well i give you credit here you succeeded. But please do not go around and try to sell how you sacrificed your civ for the good of the game. A good egoistic strategy nothing more...

I conclude that I personally don't trust this guy and there are several other incidents in the game where I am very suspicious

You have given Paranoia a whole new meaning!

[Pitboss Khmer]

Sorry guys. It's over. Won't be back. Appreciate comments.

I'm just going to tone down that post I made though... sorry...

[Robert]

Sorry guys. It's over. Won't be back.

Then this game ends here and I'm not going to host a new one.

[Pitboss Japan]

I'm not commenting on the current situation but in general:

1, if you dont like a rule then say so- since i came here i said many times that the six hours rule is bad. a turn timer minus 1-2 hours would be acceptable.
2, Those who can't accept the rule shouldnt join at all- while i dont like this rule i can still accept and play accordingly

[Pitboss Japan]

Then this game ends here and I'm not going to host a new one.

[Pitboss Spain]

Hi All,

I have a friend who would be interested in playing England. I don't know if this is okay and who has the login information and all that... (and if England is okay and all) Does anyone object? I think he would make a good addition to the game and the diplo threads.

[St Jon]

Looks all pretty academic now.

[Pitboss Spain]

Then this game ends here and I'm not going to host a new one.

hold on... I just got into the game and now this?!? Everyone, please take a deep breath and stop talking in absolutes. This type of mexican standoff is fun inside the game.

This situation now seems so charged, that we cannot get out of this without swallowing something we might not want to swallow. I suggest we try to work this out, without referring to what happened to whom and when, since this will only deadlock us into the same pattern. Please: all involved, in particular Portugal, Khmer, and Robert (not Sparta), make a post detailing one or two scenarios which would be acceptable to resolve what is happening. Please do not refer to ANY past occurence, and constrain your suggestions to what you want to see happen.

If we after this cannot see any way of resolving somewhere in the middle ground, we can throw in the towel. I hope we are willing to try here...

Spain

[St Jon]

Then this game ends here and I'm not going to host a new one.

Then tot up the scores, post them, and let's say goodbye!

This is the third time this has happened and it's too late now.

[Pitboss Rome]

Regarding the Double Move Rule, Rome and me suggest something like:

- we remove the 6 hour rule
- from now on all warring parties must obey the turn order
- we're going to sub for all not-playing civs (Maya, England)
- We put the turn timer on 48 or 72 hours during war to give everybody time to finish turns while obeying the turn order
- turns won't have to be long if everyone just plays in time (hence the subbing for Maya/England)

I genuinely think that this is the only way forward. I know people will say that this will slow down the game, but look at the actual turn/days ratio we have achieved in any of the major wars. Once all the pauses for arguments and reloads are taken into account, it ends up way way slower than a 24 hour timer anyway, and there is lots of hassle.

With any sort of 6 hour rule we all work on the expectation of turn order, but the rule doesn't actually enforce it. This is seriously bad news - setting up expectations that in some cases are false. We immediately get into arguments along the lines of 'it may be the rule but it isn't just'. A saying 'I have followed the rule' B saying 'but the expectation is that we keep to turn order whenever we can, you didn't try, you deliberately exploited the situation'. All our battles have been along those lines.

As far as I can see - either (a) in war play turn order or (b) allow all double moves at any time.

(Turn order in war would clarify the whole 'does the turn before count' debate. Whatever has happened before, the person who declares war finishes their turn, and then their opponent has to play next, and thus the order is set.)

[Pitboss Celts]

[b][color=red]
Khmer, I'm sorry but portugal did indeed not break the rules. He waited 7 hours.
Portugal has agreed that Khmer can move first next turn to give Khmer the #1 order in the turn order again. (which gives Khmer a doublem move!)

I think that's kind of Portugal. And I think it's kind of you that you agreed with no reload.

If Portugal can tell me when he's ready to finish his 1828 move then we're all settled.
I'll then pause the game and load it tomorrow morning so that we can have the normal play schedule again.

Once again, it was my fault, I shortened the turn-timer to make it fit with the 24h schedule again, which was stupid. Next time this happens I'll just enlarge the turn timer to make it fit within the 24h order again. Another lesson learned (the hard way).

As with any rule, there are special cases that nullify the rule. In this case, the shortened timer caused problems. Robert, since you admit it was your fault, you have to do something about it to fix the problem.

The Khmer need a chance to respond to the first turn of Portugal. The only way to do that is reload. As far as I can tell, this is the main issue and everything else has happened and written in the history books.

I don't know what other battles were won or lost during that turn. The biggest win seems to be against a Spartan army. Robert, since you control Sparta, why not reload the turn and allow the Khmer a chance to respond. As far as the large Spartan stack, disband it (since it lost anyway) so that the attacker can claim the spoils that have already been acquired.

Again, there may be some other battles that need to be handled in a similar fashion. I think this is the best solution and keeps people happy. The people that lost battles already know they lost, so they shouldn't (but may) whine for a second chance. Since the battles were already determined, there are no second chances. The Khmer issue doesn't even involve a battle, so why not give him the chance since the timer was shortened?

BTW: someone post in the diplo-discussion thread that all wars need to develop a turn order upon declaring war. Screw this double move crap. If you attack, talk to your opponent and set a turn order with times that can be played so as to avoid such hassles.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Lets not forget that this was an experiment (1st Pitboss Diplo Game) I think we learned a lot this game and we will not repeat the same mistakes the next game. Still there will always be people who decide to quit as a form of protest like losing a war, feeling cheated by someone etc.

I am ok with any decision that we will take here. End the game and tally the scores to see the winner or continue and find subs or even try to get back the people who quit on us.

If you guys feel that a reload will fix the current problem please do so. I am indifferent to what we do now, even if Khmer is able to safe his Alum city. Heck I will even return the city as a compromise to Khmer to safe Sparta/Rome big battle results.

It is time to heal and fix the past 2 days.