Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[Pitboss Celts]

This will likely be lost in the voting and discussion. However, I wanted to inform the remaining players that I will be out of town until Monday afternoon. I don't need a sub, everything is queued.

[Robert]

And if the majority vote that he changed the rules illegally, what happens then? Is he kicked out of the game?

Not if it's up to me.
It just means that 'his' ruleset was never the official ruleset, which ensures that players in the current dispute cannot base their argumentations on that ruleset.

Thanks for notifying us about your absence!
Wherever you go: have a nice weekend!

[Pitboss Celts]

I'm unable to connect. Is the game down until the matter resolved?

[Robert]

Yes.
It's one of those things I've learned: don't keep the game going as long as problems haven't been solved

[Pitboss Celts]

That's cool. Just checking.

[Robert]

repost to keep things running:

Can all players vote for the following:

A. The double-move turn has been reloaded and we continue from there
B. The double-move turn has to be reloaded again
C. Reload from the moment Sparta declared war on Maya, 2 turns before the double move
D. There was no double move at all, just continue from the last possible safe

Also an additional vote here:
1. Ozzy's rule change was illegal (no matter if I do or do not support his ruleset)
2. Ozzy's rule change was valid (no matter if I do or do not support his ruleset)

All players get 24 hours to vote on this, after that the game will continue as the majority voted.

Another way to deal with this issue sooner is if both Rome and Maya agree on the A,B,C or D option above

Vote update:
A: 6
B: 0
C: 0
D: 0

1: 5
2: 0
abstain: 1

[The Capo]

I am relatively sure this post will be deleted by somebody.

I haven't looked at this thread in a while and I see this cropping up again. Cyber, you are such an ass. I am sorry, but this is ridiculous. I even took SCREENSHOTS of all of the rules because I knew you would edit them (during our argument) and you have. Fortunately I don't have to post them because Ozzy found some old ones anyway (I still have the screenshots saved). I don't understand why you are doing this. I had so much respect for you prior to this game but your constant twisting of everything to suit your needs is extremely disheartening. I think there is a general consensus that you seem to disregard;

The turn prior to war is NOT considered part of a double-move during war. I don't know why you can't understand this. In fact I have no idea why you constantly mention that it should be. There is no reason for it to be. You can't set anything up prior to the declaration of war. You can't put your forces in their territory prior to the declaration of war (because they are automatically removed once you declare war).

And on top of all that you still go around disregarding everything, setting up your stupid votes with your skewed options and then presenting it like a fair decision. The act is getting stale. You should stop your nonsense and let what is fair and equitable occur. Sorry if this seems disrespectful but nothing I am saying is false and you are responsible for your own actions.

-Peace.

EDIT: I just realized you are basically trying to knock Ozzy for doing something that is entirely correct and appropriate, especially in the light of your constant twisting of rules to suit your needs/arguments. Its pathetic.

[Robert]

[Robert]

From now on I'll move post that contain accusations without evidence or support to an "Unsupported accusations without evidence" thread.

If you think that someone did something wrong then:
1. do research and look for both evidence* against or in favour of that person
2. if you did find evidence against this person, ask him for clarifaction first
3. if things can't or won't be explained show the evidence* and post the accusation.

If you don't want to do this then contact me (or someone else) in PM and place your suspicion and ask me (or someone else) to do the research.

Posting unsupported accusations is very easy and simplistic.
Defending yourself against false (and unsupported) accusations is very difficult. That's why everybody should ALWAYS refrain from easy finger pointing.

This constant finger pointing is damaging this game to the fullest.
All civilized nations on earth have this very important rule: Nobody is guilty till it has been proven.
It's not the other way around.

CyberShy

*evidence = links to posts, screenshots, civstats logs (or screenshots), in game screenshots, chatlogs, etc.

[Robert]

repost to keep things running:

Can all players vote for the following:

A. The double-move turn has been reloaded and we continue from there
B. The double-move turn has to be reloaded again
C. Reload from the moment Sparta declared war on Maya, 2 turns before the double move
D. There was no double move at all, just continue from the last possible safe

Also an additional vote here:
1. Ozzy's rule change was illegal (no matter if I do or do not support his ruleset)
2. Ozzy's rule change was valid (no matter if I do or do not support his ruleset)

All players get 24 hours to vote on this, after that the game will continue as the majority voted.

Another way to deal with this issue sooner is if both Rome and Maya agree on the A,B,C or D option above

Vote update:
A: 6
B: 0
C: 0
D: 0

1: 5
2: 0
abstain: 1

Only 8 hour more hours to go.
Maya can help to continue this game before I go to sleep. Otherwise we have to wait the other 8 hours for the obvious.

[St Jon]

I have to change my vote, AGAIN, to A and abstain.

I do not like the wording 'illegal'. Sorry if that is just your english Cyber but it implies a deliberate and premeditated act of wrongdoing. I cannot believe this to be a fair description of what has happened here. To vote on this will undermine Ozzy badly and he does not deserve it. I may have opinions as to changing rules mid-game and consultation but I believe Ozzy to be honest and think it wrong that his integrity should be called into question on an open forum in this way.

[OzzyKP]

I vote A and abstain.

[Robert]

Vote update:
A: 7
B: 0
C: 0
D: 0

1: 4
2: 0
abstain: 3

FF: it implies a deliberate and premeditated act of wrongdoing. I cannot believe this to be a fair description of what has happened here.

For the record; I do not believe that Ozzy did things deliberately or in any evil/wrong way. He tried to help the game by formulating rules that were in his opinion better for the game. An honest mistake, if I can re-use that term.

[Pitboss Khmer]

I am too busy for all this. RL health issues.

From a quick skim it appears from civstats that it was a d/move by Maya. Turn order is obvious from the participants first moves in the wars - Sparta - Maya - Rome, I think.

As for the rules all I can say is that I trust ozzy and Cyber. Just sort it out and I'll go with it. I'm very nervous about all this stuff and not having Capo in the game bothers me enormously.

Very sad attitude in this game. Let's speed up the timer and get it done!

edit - A and abstain then.

[The Capo]

I'm very nervous about all this stuff and not having Capo in the game bothers me enormously.

It bothers you that I am posting about it or it bothers you that I am not in the game anymore?

The reason I am posting about it is that this issue is vaguely what is being discussed in the new game-discussion thread (or whatever it is supposed to be), and unfortunately the lessons that we talk about in that thread have failed to become apparent to the people in this thread. Well at least one person. I'm sorry if the fact that I am involving myself in this discussion is a problem for you, I didn't mean it to be, I continue to enjoy diplogaming and I continue to watch what happens in this game because I still care about it and want it to succeed. But it seems like it is doomed to failure for whatever reason. Maybe the "culture" of argument has taken over the "spirit" of the game. Maybe there are still unresolved problems and gripes that players continue to carry with them. But when I see something detrimental continue to occur I must say something, which is why I made the comments I did. Perhaps I am in the wrong, but honestly there is a common denominator here and unfortunately it is one of the most respected diplogamers.

For him to not only carry on as if his will is gospel, and for him to try and throw out some stupid vote about what Ozzy did as if it is some sort of official denouncement of something that was not only RIGHT but was a correction upon an act that, in and of itself, was ILLEGAL (in the sense that he unilaterally changed a rule that was not only agreed upon, but was altered in a way opposed to what was discussed and agreed upon later) is completely ludicrous. In my mind we can not draw a line between these two threads. They are related, they share a common origin, and what we are discussing in the one thread is directly linked to the other.

If you said that meaning that you wish I was still in the game then I thank you. I do too. But I can't play a game in which I was so clearly and blatantly screwed, especially after I was supposedly kicked out mere hours after attempting to reach a compromise. It is a matter of principle for me, and regardless of my wish to play in the game that opportunity has passed long ago.

Honestly Cyber, I don't know what has happened to your outlook. But it has certainly changed and you are NOT the person I once enjoyed playing diplogames with anymore. I don't know what happened, but I think the power you have achieved as the Greeks has got to your head.