Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[Robert]

Thanks Rome, yes, that's indeed what I meant. I'll try to incorporate it:

Opponents don't move simultaniously during war, players are not allowed to do anything in-game after they have finished their turn during war and are supposed to logout after their end of turn immediately only to not login again. A war-turn cannot last longer then 1 hour to avoid blocking the opponent from playing

It starts to become a thick lawbook
For next game I'll propose playing without a double move rule. That'll stink, but these fights stink even more.

Anyway: people please comment on this rule change.
If everyone agrees we can also decide to just abandon the double move rule and just go by the game mechanics to end all possible fights.

[OzzyKP]

Thank you for reloading, but now there is 2 hours and 5 minutes left on the turn timer and only Portugal, Greece, Japan, the Natives and Vikings have done their turn. You have to extend the time so everyone can get their turns in. Otherwise instead of fixing the problem the reload creates an even bigger problem because you rob people (including Russia!) out of a turn.

I don't know why this has to be requested, this should have been obvious when you first reloaded.

[Robert]

I'll reload again when I'm home.
I just loaded the last save I had before Japan played.

I'll just load the autosave of that turn. (which results in more people having to redo their turn, unforunately) (by the way: I still ask: why do we reload? No rule has been broken by Japan! Do we just reload b/c russia is paranoia?)

[OzzyKP]

There was a double move.

Turn 1
Player A moves troops
Player B moves troops
Player A moves more troops

Turn 2
Player A moves troops

= Double move

[Robert]

Player A and B moved simultanious during turn 1, that's the problem (which is not being addressed in the rules)

I don't know if either player A or B moved last.

But after checking: Japan played after 5,5 hours in the new turn.
I joined after 6 hours exactly to avoid problems here, I thought that Japan joined after me, but he joined in 30 minutes earlier.

That was not that good (but understandable from a new player)

Of course, if Japan would've waited 30 more minutes like I did, then there would've no problem, especially since Russia didn't play it's turn till about the last 2 hours of the turn.

So technically yes, Japan should've waited 30 minutes at least to avoid confusion after playing simultaniously with Russia.
In reasonable-world Russia would say: "I wouldn't have played my turn before Japan anyway" but reasonable world is far away.

Technically a correct reload.
So that's where we are now. Not in reasonable world but in technical world.

[OzzyKP]

How can you say you don't know who moved last?

Japan said themselves that they moved their units, then Russia moved, then they moved units to respond. Obviously he was responding to something. So obviously some of his units moved AFTER Russia. Thus it is against the rules.

This is pretty cut and dry. In a reasonable world and a technical world there was a rule violation here. Against the spirit and the letter of the law.

[Pitboss Japan]

There was a double move.

Turn 1
Player A moves troops
Player B moves troops
Player A moves more troops

Turn 2
Player A moves troops

= Double move

In the other thread i have explained that there was no double move: those troops (which are 3 musketeers) which i have moved after "player B" did not move in my second turn at all.

Since the rest of my moves was done before player's B move I logged in in the morning and took my turn before his, (this time finished completely except i did not move those extra troops). i had to do this because if i dont then he would have made a double move. I shouldnt had to wait six hours because my opponent moved "after" my turn". again: except those troops which i have left in place.
I said that i will never make a double move even if i could after 6 hours. i will wait as long as I can to delay my turn if my opponent havent moved.

so there was no cheating and no harm was done-at least from my part. If i'm wrong, please tell me.
And again: I'm really sorry that it was not obvious to me that i should have moved in one go. After i did i have realized that it may cause problems-not in that particular case but in general, so i have asked a question about it here.

[Pitboss Japan]

How can you say you don't know who moved last?

Japan said themselves that they moved their units, then Russia moved, then they moved units to respond. Obviously he was responding to something. So obviously some of his units moved AFTER Russia. Thus it is against the rules.

This is pretty cut and dry. In a reasonable world and a technical world there was a rule violation here. Against the spirit and the letter of the law.

it was like this:
Turn1:

Player A moved
Player B moved
Player A moved
Player B moved

turn2

Player A moved
player B moved

turn3

So as you see it wasnt me who moved last in the first turn. Still i dont deny that it was a mistake, but it was something which i didnt know (ie: making steps in different times in a turn) and i think it is also important that this in it self didnt cause any harm

[Pitboss Rome]

I have huge sympathy for the new Japanese player here - to start in the middle of a war with two nations - Sparta and Russia - is grim. And these rules etc. are confusing.

However, I think that the moral we have learnt is that it is almost impossible to identify what 'harm was done' by moves except in the most simple of cases, and that in the long run reloading is the only answer. I don't like reloads at all, because of the mess they casue to diplomacy (have I insulted Menalaus for his unnatural desire for fish yet or not?).

But I want to say to the new Japanese player for joining us and trying to get to grips with the game while being invaded on two sides.

[Pitboss Celts]

Having trouble connecting again. game down?

[Robert]

How can you say you don't know who moved last?

Japan said themselves that they moved their units, then Russia moved, then they moved units to respond. Obviously he was responding to something. So obviously some of his units moved AFTER Russia. Thus it is against the rules.

You are sure that Russia didn't move after that anymore?
Russia was still in the game when that happened.

I may be wrong there, I don't know.
I simply conclude that simultanious moving happened here, which was not against the rules, but not a very good situation either.

And like I said; Russia only played at the end of the next turn.
Technically Japan should have waited for the 6 hours to be safe.
But let us have some sympathy for a new player, like Rome said.

What's the need to reload a game for if someone played 30 minutes too early while his opponent was not about tomove for about 15 more hours!

But well, if that's what people want, then we reload.
This is a huge precedent. We'll end up reloading everytime someone makes a mistake. We should try to keep the game running, and only reload if things can't be fixed while the game kept runnig.

For the sake of the game!!

@Japan: to avoid confusion it would've been better to wait for the 6 hours to pass. I respect your decision to not move your 3 units a lot!
But things just get a bit vague if some units are and other units aren't moved. Who's going to check that?

But you attempts to stay within the rules is very honourable! Thanks for that.

[Robert]

I have reloaded the game back to the beginning of the turn to give everyone chance to play the turn.

EVERYONE please play the same you did (as far as possibe)!

And for the record, I have both saves from before the reload.
I personally still believe that no reload was needed. no rules were broken, just some confusion and paranoia. It would server our game much more if we would just continue from the last save.

[OzzyKP]

I have huge sympathy for the new Japanese player here - to start in the middle of a war with two nations - Sparta and Russia - is grim. And these rules etc. are confusing.

However, I think that the moral we have learnt is that it is almost impossible to identify what 'harm was done' by moves except in the most simple of cases, and that in the long run reloading is the only answer. I don't like reloads at all, because of the mess they casue to diplomacy (have I insulted Menalaus for his unnatural desire for fish yet or not?).

But I want to say to the new Japanese player for joining us and trying to get to grips with the game while being invaded on two sides.

Agreed. I certainly don't blame Japan or remotely accuse him of cheating or deliberate foul play. The only way to determine if harm was done was to ask the supposedly aggrieved party. Russia seems to be very upset over what happened, so that proves that some harm was done. It isn't up to us to decide what level of harm is substantial enough to warrant a reload.

[Robert]

Russia was not upset about a 'double move' or something.
He was upset because of paranoia. He thought that me and Japan had stayed in the game till 6am our time to wait for him and to plot against him, etc.

You should all be very carefull to not be taken hostage by paranoia.
Paranoia is very understandable. It sucks to face a different enemy suddenly and see your in-game goals vanish suddenly because a sub shows up. But the other players, not involved, should then talk to the paranoid player and just tell him to calm down instead of believing all those conspiracy theories.

[Pitboss Rome]

Does that post help? Aren't we trying to wind this down not up? At least say 'we' should be careful about paranoia!