Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[mzprox]

Maybe an addition should be made to the rule, something like:

Opponents don't move simultaniously during war, players are not allowed to move after they have finished their turn during war. A war-turn cannot last longer then 1 hour to avoid blocking the opponent from playing

Good rule?

I agree with these, it's quite the same what i suggested except one extra thing. This rule along with the six hour wait rule doesnt stop ppl making double move. Fair play does (Friendly Fire said that He delayed his move despite the 6 hours lapsed-But according to the current rules he could have made a double move. That's why i suggested that during war we should agree on a fixed timeframe when each of us make his/her turn. But anyhow we decide i will never make a double move during war and i will ignore the 6 hours rule. Ofc. i will move before the timer runs out and i hadn't moved yet)

[Robert]

As far as rule changes, I do NOT agree to changing the rule to cover the turn before war is declared.

You're a bit late.
First it was aleady agreed upon before the game started, then it was reaffirmed and implemented 3 weeks ago.

But you vote against has been noted

[The Capo]

As far as rule changes, I do NOT agree to changing the rule to cover the turn before war is declared.

You're a bit late.
First it was aleady agreed upon before the game started, then it was reaffirmed and implemented 3 weeks ago.

But you vote against has been noted

I agree with Ozzy. I know I am not in the game but rules you make here set precedents (so far bad ones) for future games and this is probably going to be one of them. Counting the rule to cover the turn before war is declared is entirely stupid and serves no true purpose at all. It also takes out an element of strategy from the game. I am also not so sure that this was actually agreed to and reaffirmed as you state it was. In fact I am pretty sure it was generally shot down by numerous players as well as the panel of "independent" judges.

[Pitboss Celts]

Here we go again. Take it to the debate thread.

[Robert]

Ozzy is the first to oppose this rule during the course of this game.
The judges said that this rule was not implementated in the ruleset of this game, which was accepted as the correct explanation of the ruleset and applied upon the situation back then.

Then it was suggested to change the rule and let it reflect our original intentions.
I have suggested the formulation of the new rule. Nobody disagreed after a few calls for feedback. Then it was implementated.

It obviously does have an impact on the game, it's just a matter of debate if the impact is large and/or negative enough to make a rule needed.
We have agreed that we should include it in the rules, and that's where it is right now.

It can obviously be discussed again for future games.
And if majority of the players want to discuss it for this game, I'm fine with that.
But as long as that's not the case I say: case closed.

Capo: if you are "pretty sure it was generally shot down by numerous players" then I invite you to show us.

[St Jon]

I'm sorry Cyber but I think this stinks and was a put up job, very clever of you, but still a deliberate 'bending' of the rules - just not quite breaking them as there is no explicit rule to cover this situation!

When I eventually had to play my move it was close to 0200 BST. What does that make it in Budapest - something between 0500-0600? Does everyone in Hungary have a sleep disorder?

I thought it odd that no sooner had I logged on then so did Cyber. Did I see a flashing Greece Declares War on Russia? No I didn't and and why was that? Your reply to my PM expressing my displeasure at the move

Hi there,

I discussed this with Japan as well yesterday. He asked me about it.
He stayed in the game waiting for me, he sent me msg to come to the game to explain stuff. He didn't knew I wouldn't be around for hours, so he just waited.

The rule doesn't explicitly say anything about staying in the game or not moving simultaniously.
I'd say that since he reacted on your move, he moved last, so you move first next turn.
I'll make a proposal for an update for the rule that forbids moving simultaniously and moving after you finished your turn.

CS

You are quite correct, and mzprox at least had read enough of the 6hr double move rule to know that you cannot login, logout and then login again to finish your turn in war. So you show great kindness by coaching a new player in how to stay within the 'letter of the law' whilst converting, where convenient to you, a PitBoss game into a TCP/IP game! Very noble to stay up till 0300 to do that! This was a pre-planned stitch up by you which has put me hopelessly out of position. Not a bad night's work!

What are we all to do? Login at the beginning of each turn and watch 19hrs of nothing happening just in case we can pull a flanker on someone? Do we just decide that someone can bore another player into not playing their turn at all is a legitimate tactic?

Another lesson learn't. How to avoid having the turn before war as being included in the double move rule. Very clever, you don't declare war you just blame 'game mechanics' and it makes everything all right?

Sorry, but this really is a step too far! Helping a new player is one thing but to use their lack of surety of the rules to pursue your own 'in game' aims is an utter disgrace.This may not be out and out cheating but it is bloody close to it!

So what are you proposing as host and arbiter? That we retrospectively change the rules so that it can never happen again but you still get what you wanted?

I won't ask for a Pause amd Re-Load as they will not suit you and are therefore worthless requests!

My respect for you has waned to say the least!

[Robert]

FF, I very well understand that you dislike the change of events.
And to be honest, my plans were to conquer all of Japan instead of having to deal with a vassal.

But (fortunately) things are different.
We have a sub, and now we have to deal with that. And I think that's a lot better for this game.

Why don't you just support the rule I have stated above which ends all those exploits you mention.

I'm not going to address all your wrong accusations and facts because I've learned from the last fight that doing that doesn't help at all
Please check your facts very good before you post paranoid posts like that

This game is having a huge paranoia-problem, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing though
Please be paranoid in-game and not ooc.
There's no reason to be that paranoid.

We have a new sub for japan, I have dealt with it, now you also have to deal with it. Good luck!

CyberShy

Ps. I really don't understand your rant about 'double moves' and 'declaring war'.

[Pitboss Japan]

When I eventually had to play my move it was close to 0200 BST. What does that make it in Budapest - something between 0500-0600? Does everyone in Hungary have a sleep disorder?

Something is wrong with your calculations as i was up untill maximum 1 am . Sparta made his move after i left i think.
I want to apologize here as i havent played this kind of multiplayer game yet so i hadnt thought logging in and staying for long (obvilously i was tabbed out most of the time) and making my moves in different time could cause trouble. ( i thought you already made your move so i was suprised see your units moving ) As regard of my millitary units i can assure you that no double move was made, and my question was not even about this but about how to avoid this in the future. However it is true that i have reacted on your turn what i probably should have done in my following turn.
From now on i will make all my ingame move between 8am-10am (GMT) so there shouldnt be this kind of problem anymore, but it still could happen with others in other wars as well.

[Robert]

Japan: don't base your moves on 'real time' hours!
The turns are shorter then 'real days' so if you only play during 8am-10am you not only miss turns but you'll also break the rules at a certain moment (not on purpose).

Just keep in mind that if you were the last to move during the last turn, don't move at all during the first 6 hours of the next turn!

[Pitboss Japan]

Japan: don't base your moves on 'real time' hours!
The turns are shorter then 'real days' so if you only play during 8am-10am you not only miss turns but you'll also break the rules at a certain moment (not on purpose).

Just keep in mind that if you were the last to move during the last turn, don't move at all during the first 6 hours of the next turn!

I cant brake it that way, worst case i miss a turn , but i can avoid that. The six hours rule does not -in its self- make double move impossible: there are 10 -12 hours periods during a day when i can not play so double move against me in that time is possible.
Btw it started as a simple ( i thought) question from me.. now i see it should have gone into the debate thread.

[The Capo]

The six hour deadline is not there to prevent double-moves. Its there in case its impossible for the other player to wait for whatever reason. This way the game isn't too strict to follow/play considering it has an international cast. That's the idea behind that. We all know that the six hour rule doesn't prevent double moves, but its there just in case.

[Pinchak]

There's no reason to be that paranoid.

Your becoming a pro FF.

[The Capo]

Your becoming a pro FF.

Let's just hope he doesn't become a FORMER pro...

[Robert]

The game has been reloaded to 1726 (2 turns ago)
This to avoid another lengthy debate.

This reload is somewhere before the new player Japan logged in to the game.
The confusion is about Japan logging in to the game and staying in the game for 3 hours waiting for me. (he wanted to talk to me, both to explain him some diplo-stuff and to negotiate peace with me)

These 3 hours being logged in where a problem for the Russians, with whom Japan was at war. Now Russia was forced to wait to play it's turn. After 3 hours Russia couldn't wait and had to play it's turn simultanious with Japan.

This was an unfortunate but not evil intended situation.
We must address this by adding something to the rules; I suggest the following:

Opponents don't move simultaniously during war, players are not allowed to move after they have finished their turn during war. A war-turn cannot last longer then 1 hour to avoid blocking the opponent from playing

Please comment on it, both if you agree or if you do not agree with the rule.
If you think it's no problem to be in the game for 3 hours or have simultanious moves during wars, please post that.

I'm sorry for the reload, but this way another lengthy fight can be avoided.
I hope that from now on we'll all be reasonable. Sometimes something occurs about which the rules say nothing, but which is not wanted. Let's try to deal with that in a good way.

I am sure that some of you may oppose this reload.
Let's not fall into an endless argument about this reload.

[Pitboss Rome]

Thanks Cyber. I'm not a great friend of reloads but it seems sensible here, although it gives a strange twist to some of the heated diplomacy of the last day - maybe a chance to get it right.

On the rules - I think they make sense. The only thing you migth want to clarify is what you mean by 'move' in "players are not allowed to move after they have finished their turn during war." Does moving mean drafting, going into anarchy, slaving, making treaties etc. all of which don't involve moving a unit. I presume what we mean is 'players are not allowed to do anything IG'.