Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[The Capo]

Seriously, Capo, what are you talking about?

Jesus ****ing Christ CS! Its all written in black and white.

You can play coy all you want, you know what the hell you did. I got screwed and then railroaded out of the game. You clearly broke the rule that you wrote, we even had to bring in judges and despite a horrible explanation to them they STILL saw through your bull**** and ruled against you, but obviously it didn't matter. I know they were brought in for what amounted to a show trial, but I guess they didn't get the memo. Of course none of it really mattered because you were going to do whatever you wanted to anyway, which was the exact same mentality that drove you to change the rules of game despite popular disagreement with you, AND independent judges disagreeing with you.

Now you act like you have no idea about any of this? I refuse to believe you are that dense. Especially after managing to trick everyone into buying your crap for this long.

[Robert]

Ah, you're still there, at 2 months ago.
My 'what are you talking about' was directed at your apparent description of the last issue we had in the game, because what you wrote about that was pretty inaccurate.

Can you please leave this game alone? There are 14 other players in this game who don't deserve this stuff all the time. You're not in this game anymore (you left yourself) so just stay out of this thread with your tirades. Dig up the discussion thread if you want and use it against me in any way you want.

[Pitboss Japan]

A rule was in place. When I realized Greece had broken the rule, and then Rome, I assumed we were operating with no rules. My double move was on purpose (i think that is fairly obvious) to either; 1. Take advantage of the apparent absence of a enforced rule to try and save my ass (legally mind you), or 2. bring the fact that the rule was ignored to light.

Please tell me what was the rule at the moment in your interpretation which Rome and Greece broke. I'm really interesed. Also would like to know Ozzy's interpretation... because in mine they hadnt broken any rule.

I hope we can agree on one thing: there is no way to agree on turn order before the declaration of the war unless it's chivalrous one which is rare. But when the war has already started there is only one way to avoid double move: that is to keep the turn order of the first round.

((I think if we are gona write a long rule book for diplogames we should ad something like this:
"if you notice that someone breaks the rule, cheating etc. ask for pause, report and let the case be investigated. Under no circumstanes you should feel that from that point rule breaking/cheating is justified. ))

[Pitboss Rome]

My last post on the issue since the game has now moved on.

When I realized Greece had broken the rule, and then Rome, I assumed we were operating with no rules.

Please do not libel me by suggesting I broken any rules here. What you mean is that the moment I declared war, you believe I should have contacted you about turn order. But you equally did not contact me about turn order. Failing to send a pm about turn order is not breaking rules, double moving is.

Its a damn straight-forward rule. Don't double-move during war. I don't know how you can possibly screw this up.

Exactly. You are right Capo. It is damn straight-forward which is why everyone has agreed and the turn was reloaded. I think you have misunderstood the situation - its Maya who double-moved and is trying to construct an argument to allow it. Maybe you should read the posts and understand the situation before posting.

[Robert]

When I realized Greece had broken the rule

????? Greece? What has Greece to do with this?

- Maya has made a double move, that's clear.

- Some claim that the false rules would have required Rome and Maya to make a turn-order, which is only 1 interpretation of a false ruleset, but if true then both Maya and Rome 'broke' the rule.

Greece has nothing to do with this. And as a matter of fact Greece was even willing to see Maya's double move through the fingers for the sake of the game.

So we have:
Maya broke 1 rule for sure, and perhaps in some very very disputed way another rule
Rome only in some very very disputed way broke 1 rule

There's only 1 thing we can all be clear on: Maya broke the rules.
So why exactly are you pointing fingers at others instead of apologizing for your own faults?

[OzzyKP]

Please tell me what was the rule at the moment in your interpretation which Rome and Greece broke. I'm really interesed. Also would like to know Ozzy's interpretation... because in mine they hadnt broken any rule.

I hope we can agree on one thing: there is no way to agree on turn order before the declaration of the war unless it's chivalrous one which is rare. But when the war has already started there is only one way to avoid double move: that is to keep the turn order of the first round.

((I think if we are gona write a long rule book for diplogames we should ad something like this:
"if you notice that someone breaks the rule, cheating etc. ask for pause, report and let the case be investigated. Under no circumstanes you should feel that from that point rule breaking/cheating is justified. ))

Yea, the turn order doesn't need to be agreed to before the war. Only once the war has begun. I think it is entirely appropriate for the aggressor nation to move first and others to follow. Maintaining this order makes sense.

So yea, while ideally all warring parties should have discussed it to formally agree to the turn-order, since there was an existing turn order that was obeyed initially (till Maya decided they wanted to make a point by throwing a wrench in everything) that order should be followed.

[Pitboss Maya]

It is really this simple...

During the turn in which Greece declared war on Maya, and during the turn Rome declared war on Maya, there was a written rule regarding turns which mandated that both parties decide on a turn order. There was no "six hour rule" during this time as the "turn order" rule replaced it.

Hence...

Greece, Maya, and Rome broke the rule that was in place at the time. Also according to the rule at the time, the turn should be reloaded. Considering Greece and Maya effectively broke the rule before Rome got involved, the turn should be reloaded back to when Greece declared war.

I'm done defending my position on this.

PS: An agreed upon turn order will never work.

[Robert]

During the turn in which Greece declared war on Maya, (...), there was a written rule regarding turns which mandated that both parties decide on a turn order. There was no "six hour rule" during this time as the "turn order" rule replaced it.

Now I see your point.
But no, the rule was changed AFTER Greece declares war on you. (which made the rule double illegal because changing rules during wartime is defenitely a no-no)

And indeed, an agreed upon turn order makes no sence. The turn order is created automaticly when someone declares war. And it can always change during the because ie. player 1 can at a certain turn only move 30 minutes before the end of the turn. Well, then the orde switches. No reason to have all these debates, just stick to the old rule, improve it and stick to it.

But Maya: at any possible the official original ruleset applies to our war, and naturally also or your war with Rome because rules can't be changed like that and in no way at all during a war (of Sparta and Maya)

[Robert]

[Pitboss Rome]

Pause!

I have just started to play my turn but very quickly felt I had to stop.

Maya did not play last turn, and I think that he didn't play the previous turn. Previously he was taking turns and putting up a good defence.

I'm not wanting to criticise - he may be ill / busy / annoyed whatever. But I think that there is a real problem just carrying on.

In front of my there is a great general in the open defenceless, wounded infantry sitting defenceless in grasslands outside strong Mayan cities etc. I really don't want to just carry on on the basis that if Maya doesn't play his turn that is my good fortune.

Can we pause the game while we work out what to do?

I don't have many suggestions as to what to do. And I know pausing is a great pain for everyone. And I don't think this is about reloading anything - though if anyone wants to argue it is fine.

Obviously what I can do is just stop any action in Maya - which I am very happy to do, indeed I hold Mayan cities I want to give back! But its very odd leaving troops of a nation at war with my lying all around cities I hold, great generals in the open etc. Also within the game, we would need to be clear that both Sparta and I (and anyone else) was stopping.

Otherwise - we I don't know. Maybe this is dead. I have said privately throughout this war that the complete collapse of Maya would be the death of this game in my mind since it would benefit Rome and Sparta too much. They would be benefitting too much from a player appearing to drop out.

I refuse to feel guilty about launching a war - nobody has ever defined diplo as 'peace only' but "launch a war, player drops out or disappears for a few turns, you conquer the whole place" is a game-breaking dynamic.

But, I stop and other people carry on, wouldn't seem a good option either. So can we together work out what to do?

I have to be off now for 4 hours or so. Obviously if Maya returns during that time great - I will be mid move sadly. Happy for him to go, me to finish off, then him move first next turn. Or if he wants to wait for me to complete my turn fine. Otherwise if the game is still running I will complete my turn but avoid attacking Maya at all, but as I say, IG its an odd thing to do, and difficult if others are continuing attacking, without some sort of wider discussion here.

[Pitboss Japan]

I agree on pause. Hope to hear from Maya soon.

Some other thoughts:
I really like the idea of "measured war" in diplo games. I also think that superpowers shouldnt stay idle while big fish terrorizing small fish .
The aggression against Japan (i.e. dividing up its whole land..) was understandable as at that moment it was an ai nation with no player behind.

However: I'd be carefull about this capitulation/vassalage things, as this is a very poorly implemented feature in Civ4. It seems to be permament and when i have accepted it i was told otherwise by Sparta. At that time giving in the demand seemed like a good idea, but i would have never accepted such a term if i had known this. Not because i intended to cancel it anytime soon, but because i think binding a nation permamently to an other is a bad thing.

[St Jon]

You are stuck now Rome. You break the double login in war-time if you complete your turn so that's it I'm afraid for you till next turn.

I already said this to you that if Maya refuses any and all offers there will be no option but to destroy him.

Japan you should, after 10 turns, have the option to cease vassalage on the diplomacy screen with Greece. The rest I disagree with totally as I thought I was going to attack a human player, never was AI anyway, and my aim was to drive Japan off the continent and had no consideration of accepting any peace-treaty offerred. Perfectly fair.

[Robert]

I've paused the game. I'll comment on the issue later.
If Pinchak won't continue to play the Maya which I hope not) then we must find a sub.

I think that rome did something very honourable here and the "don't login twice" rule (which isn't even official yet) does certainly not apply to him here.

[Robert]

We haven't heard anything from Maya since my post #684 in this thread.
It was after that that he stopped doing anything. Maybe a coincident.

[Pitboss Japan]

Japan you should, after 10 turns, have the option to cease vassalage on the diplomacy screen with Greece. The rest I disagree with totally as I thought I was going to attack a human player, never was AI anyway, and my aim was to drive Japan off the continent and had no consideration of accepting any peace-treaty offerred. Perfectly fair.

1, No, it cannot be canceled
2, It's more complicated than that, but it's already the past so just leave it . The thing is when i have joined to the game the war was already running and Japan was about to completely destroyed, which as i said maybe acceptable if the country has no owner, but not quite in the other case.