Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[Robert]

Yes, I thought it was possible to cancel after 10 turns (it was like that before in diplogames!)
It can be ended, under certain conditions.

Japan: Russia prepared an invasion of Japan when it was still human, then things changed and Japan became subbed, and then again you took control, so it was quite difficult for Russia as well.

Being a vassal is not that bad, btw. You just can't declare war / peace on your own to other civs anymore.

[St Jon]

Looks like Ozzy is going to be called into action again!

Maya are certainly too big and too advanced to be cut up by Rome/Sparta but getting an external Sub will be hard at this stage. Trouble is, I think Pinchak was determined in what he said and that he would just fight until the bitter end which would have forced utter destruction or an expensive never-ending war for Rome and Sparta.

It's a sort of 'heads I win, tails you lose' situation.

[St Jon]

I think that rome did something very honourable here and the "don't login twice" rule (which isn't even official yet) does certainly not apply to him here.

I agree that Rome did act honourably and correctly and should not be penalised but the 'no multiple-logins during wartime was adopted, it did I think even appear in the rules briefly, but there is no doubt that it is a formal part of the rule-set along with maximum time of 1hr logged in during wartime to prevent timing someone else out of their turn and simultaneous movement. You agreed them, as host, and it was all discussed openly so I think we can take them as official and formal.

[Pitboss Japan]

You missed my real points which were:
-"measured war" is good
-vassalage/capitulation is bad
and not about Japan's situation.

And i brought this up because of the current Maya conflict and the Spartan peace offer. I do think that the capitulation is poorly implemented in civ4 and especially not suited for our diplogames. Current form it forces the loser to a permament bond to the winner. And the problems with it:
-no chance to revenge at any time
-you actually have to declare war on your master's enemy in the future (even if they were your friends)
-you cant declare war on anyone-you left with very poor diplomatic options

Those things are actually fine, the problem is with the "permament" status. I could imagine some ageement: like vassalage for min. X turns - it can be done, but the way to do it is after the peace as a volunteered vassalage and not capitulation.

[Robert]

Ok, I'll withdraw my capitulation condition.
To me it's mostly a way to ensure that the Mayans won't stab me in the back again.

Pinchak, can you please let us know if you want to continue this game? Can you comment on my #684 post, because I believe that there has at least been a misunderstanding there. I am willing to reload 2 turns back to let you play those turns you missed. (of course depending on the question if others agree on that as well)

If not, please let us know. I'll then ask Mike to sub for the Maya.

[St Jon]

You missed my real points which were:
-"measured war" is good
-vassalage/capitulation is bad
and not about Japan's situation.

And i brought this up because of the current Maya conflict and the Spartan peace offer. I do think that the capitulation is poorly implemented in civ4 and especially not suited for our diplogames. Current form it forces the loser to a permament bond to the winner. And the problems with it:
-no chance to revenge at any time
-you actually have to declare war on your master's enemy in the future (even if they were your friends)
-you cant declare war on anyone-you left with very poor diplomatic options

Those things are actually fine, the problem is with the "permament" status. I could imagine some ageement: like vassalage for min. X turns - it can be done, but the way to do it is after the peace as a volunteered vassalage and not capitulation.

If you cannot opt out after 10 Turns then something has changed, and I agree, badly. If you are stuck then I am certain that the other way to end it is if you get Cyber to demand something and you should be able to say 'NO' and that will by definition break the Vassalage. If that doesn't work then it must be outlawed from future games.

Still Vassalage can be good, my most annoying SP defeat ever was when I accepted the Dutch request to take them under Vassalage. As all I was concerned with was knocking out my last serious rival so I accepted, and with a secure border, and set about continuing my war only to find that I was beaten by a Dutch, my own Vassal's, Cultural Victory!

I was annoyed!

[Pitboss Rome]

Thanks guys for the pause. I think it is far better that we sort out some way of ensuring the Mayans are being looked after before we carry on. Maybe that means reloading to the last turn they missed, maybe not but just Sparta and me agreeing to a self imposed no attacking Maya if not attacked for 2-3 turn to let them find their feet, have a chance at diplomacy, and get themselves together after the missed turns.

Regarding vassalage - I hadn't thought there was a problem with it OOC, although I have just complained IG on the story board about Menalaus asking for it. However, what is being said by Japan - that it is permanent not just for 10 years does make it far more problematic and I think should be outlawed.

I am not sure that this is different than the standard SP rules though:
vassalage - which if offered when you are at peace with someone - can be cancelled after 10
capitulation - which is offered when you are at war - can't be cancelled.

Hence when Russia vassalised to Piercia earlier in the game it could be cancelled (and was) because Russia was at peace with Piercia at the time.
When Japan capitulated to Sparta recently it can't be cancelled because Sparta was at war with Japan at the time.
Vasslage and capitulation are different.

However, this has only just become clear to me. I certainly was of the opinoin that the Japanese situation wasn't permanent, and it seems to me to be a major problem if it is - if there is any way of breaking it I bielieve we should arrange it OOC. Even if this means it is done, then Japan immediately offers peacetime vassalage, so it returns to teh status quo except everyone known that then in 10 turns it becomes breakable. At the same time if we believe in changing rules, we should bring one in outlawing capitulation.

[Pitboss Rome]

(And Cyber not sure its sensible to ask Maya to comment on your #684. He sees it differently; everyone else agreed with my request for the reload so that is what happened. He has had to accept that the reload happened as a matter of fact; I don't think we can ask him to agree that it was right, or that his argumentation was flawed. I think he has every right to still disagree and we just need to move on.)

[Robert]

And Cyber not sure its sensible to ask Maya to comment on your #684. He sees it differently

Rome, I think that Maya was never aware of the fact that the rules were changed after the greek/mayan war started. That makes quite a change, and is not a matter of opinion but a fact.

As a free person he's allowed to disagree with everything, I'm just hoping that now he learned that the facts may be a bit different then he thought he may re-consider his opinion. It may help him to move on.

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Regarding capitulation, I think that at some level the capitulation offer (semi-permanent) is a nice alternative to complete annihilation. It keeps players in the game, they an continue their stories, diplomacy, and even warfire if they figh along with their master, and even continue to try to win an in-game victory, but have been defeated in some way.

I understand that at some level it's annoying, but it is very realistic at another level.
As with the Maya, Maya has vowed to continue to fight the Spartans till the end. I then have to chose between annihilating the Maya (which is prohibited, and I don't want to do it either) or having an unwilling neighbour to my east border all the time. Then capitulation is a nice compromis.

It can even give advantages to the capitulated civ. A strong master that'll defend it's properties and supplies him with goodies and stuff.
In past games I was more or less a vassal of Ozzy and deity several times.

But hey, i'm dutch, we dutch are more used to be the lesser nation. For americans and british people it may be pretty hard to be someone's vassal for all of eternity

[St Jon]

But hey, i'm dutch, we dutch are more used to be the lesser nation. For americans and british people it may be pretty hard to be someone's vassal for all of eternity

Tell that to the Indonesians!!!

[St Jon]

I am not sure that this is different than the standard SP rules though:
vassalage - which if offered when you are at peace with someone - can be cancelled after 10
capitulation - which is offered when you are at war - can't be cancelled.

Sadly, you are entirely right. If the SP rules have simply been transposed, very likely, then I am afraid that Japan is stuck forever. Not really sure what we can do about this one except re-load back to the turn before and Japan to accept peace and then vasalage. It's a long re-load back and even I can't remember my moves let again anyone else!

It does need a re-load or Japan has no freedom of action for the rest of the Game. Regardless of desire Sparta can never declare war on Japan as the game mechanics will not allow it. It puts Japan in a hopeless state and obligates Sparta till now and end turn.of defending Japan regardless of other commitments.

I can see no other alternative unless Sparta/Japan are happy to live with it.

[Pitboss Japan]

Sadly, you are entirely right. If the SP rules have simply been transposed, very likely, then I am afraid that Japan is stuck forever. Not really sure what we can do about this one except re-load back to the turn before and Japan to accept peace and then vasalage. It's a long re-load back and even I can't remember my moves let again anyone else!

It does need a re-load or Japan has no freedom of action for the rest of the Game. Regardless of desire Sparta can never declare war on Japan as the game mechanics will not allow it. It puts Japan in a hopeless state and obligates Sparta till now and end turn.of defending Japan regardless of other commitments.

I can see no other alternative unless Sparta/Japan are happy to live with it.

Nah, no reload at this point, just lets learn from it. Btw if an admin had access to the worldbuilder he could easily edit it.

[St Jon]

Nah, no reload at this point, just lets learn from it. Btw if an admin had access to the worldbuilder he could easily edit it.

Good, but sorry you have ended up in this position. Could you stll use World Builder this deep into such a big game?

You are right that this a learning process for us all.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Game is down

Did Pinchak quit again?

By the way who wouldn't after losing more than 15 cities to his enemies.

[Pitboss Khmer]

My reading of civstats is that Pinchak/Maya have only played up to 1758 AD and then once more in 1762 AD. It is now 1768 AD. So several turns were missed.

I thought this would be obvious to everyone and that there was no Mayan to diplo with; nor any military responses...

I'm very bothered about this but I am so far behind in reading the posts - I'll try and catch up (HUGE RL issues for me at mo)

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BTW HRE's father has just died (Peacefully as I understand it). I am subbing for him. Sincere condoloences to him and his family.