Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[Pitboss Spain]

I don't have the patch installed. But I'm fine with whatever people decide.

I think at a minimum, those New Portugal cities that were previously promised to Russia and then given to Spain, should be given to Russia.

No, it was CS who promised them, when he has no authority to do so, when they were long promised to me by Portugual, so I am not giving them up and I am not giving up my lands in New Sparta since I have paid for them.

[Robert]

Spain, you mix two things up.
Please keep these things from the public forum and also try to react less defensive.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Why are people not reading my posts, this is the last time i will say it. Portugal gave the two cities to Persia. Russia has no right to ask for this cities, this is not Christmas!!!!

That land was Portuguese, my settlers were already there to settle it. Persia needed land, i changed my plans by deciding to give them the land to help them out. (Some of you really wanted to keep the player around due to his qualities and asked that some of us give him incentives to keep on playing the game. So i tried and offered him free land) Now that the Persian player has left the game some of you think that they have the right to do as they please with his cities. Well i say total BS!! Russia has no history in South NP, never tried negotiating for it and never showed an in game willingness to seek land there. On the other hand Spain has been in contact with me about South NP for centuries. So i will not have it this way. The NP cities were given back to Portugal, which have been transferred over to Spain.

And yes I am with Spain on this 100%

[Robert]

Here's the deal with the division of Piercia (and Korea)

Piercia has ceased to be in this game.
It has been decided to divide the cities of Piercia among some smaller nations.
This is *NOT* the best method of dealing with civs that are out of the game!! We should never do it again this way, but now we did let's try to make the best of it. Please all cooperate!

The deal below is my final suggestion.
If it's not accepted then we MUST reinstall Piercia! This can be done by making Piercia a colony of Japan and handing all Piercian cities back to Piercia. That'll be a painful process that must be AVOIDED at all costs! So if you are against this deal below: THINK TWICE!
All be reasonable!

Piercia consisted of:
- 10 continental cities on the biggest land mass
- 2 colonial cities on New Portugal

The cities of Piercia will have to be divided in an OUT OF CHARACTER manner.
IN CHARACTER deals regarding these cities will have no influence on this. IC stuff must be token IC.

This means first of all that an IC deal between Piercia and Portugal cannot be honoured by handing Piercian cities over to Portugal OOC, so that Portugal can honour another IC deal with Spain. OOC and IC do NOT mix!

Now the deal:

1. Japan gets 7 of the Piercian land cities, Wyandots get 3 Piercian land cities
2. Russia gets 2 Piercian NP cities
3. Spain gets 1 Japanese NS city + 1 settler + 2 workers
4. Maya get all of Korea
5. Maya gives 1 Korean New Portugal city to Russia
6. Maya gives 1 Korean island city to Rome

After this division it's up to all civs to deal with this IC!
If Sparta decides that it doesn't want Spain on NS it can send an army to destroy the Spanish (ex Japanese) settlement on New Sparta and hand it over to Russia, just to name an example! Keep that stuff IN CHARACTER and let this OOC division of Piercia not be spoiled by it.

This is an OOC proposal that must be accepted by the majority of the Game Players.
The Majority vote should here be accepted by all involved parties!

If the majority of the players votes AGAINST this deal then we'll have a new vote on what to do. (reload back to 10 turns ago or something or re-installing Piercia in another way and completely deal IC with it)

Now there's ANOTHER complication.
Japan has admitted to me that it has token 3 Piercian techs.
We can have a lengthy debate about his intentions and if this was evil or an honest mistake.
Let's skip that part and fast forward to the solution.

Japan has gold me that he accepted a penalty of 9000 gold to pay for these 3 techs.
This 9000 gold will be paid to me, I will then split it up amongst the most behind civs. (we'll have to figure a good splitting method here, which will be done later).

The 9000 gold penalty was made by me and accepted by Japan. It's not a compromis. (like I said: 15000 and Japan said 6000 and it ended up 9000. No, it was 9000, 3000 per tech, as a penalty).

This money will be paid by Japan in the game. Japan obviously gets some time to gather this money in any IC-way possible. (he can even borrow it from civ x, then pay it and just never pay it back to civ x. any IC way he uses to get the money is ok. I make this clear to avoid a debate over this later for the case he pulls something I describe above.)

Is everybody content with this solution?
Vote YES or NO.
We CANNOT debate another penalty. If this won't be acceptable then we'll never agree on anything and then the only solution is a reload or something even more worse.

Personally I think that a 9000 gold penalty which will be given to the low civs is a pretty good penalty and a solution as well.

So all please vote:
- Are you ok with the OOC division of Piercia (Korea has already been accepted! Maya just helps solving the issue of Piercia)
- Are you ok with the 9000 penalty on Japan.

If the majority of the players accept this then this is all done and will not be refered to anymore. Civs that have paid their penalty have paid their penalty.

All please consider this carefully.
We have made this mess together (some by not responding, others by not caring, others by taking too much advantage, etc.) and we can play the blame-game, but let's just get things rolling again!

Thanks all for being cooperative.

[Pitboss Portugal]

For the good of the game, I will agree on whatever people decide. I am here to play and have fun and not fight with my civ friends.

Thank you CyberShy for trying to smooth this Persian issue.

[Pitboss Spain]

I have done the deed.

[OzzyKP]

I agree to the proposal.

Is there any deadline for Japan giving the money? That is a very large sum of money. If he is running 60% science and earning 20 gpt that isn't going to cut it. He will need to go all gold to finance this debt. Otherwise he is just going to play us and screw the game out of the gold penalty.

[Robert]

Well, Japan has to pay ASAP.
Not putting his tech-rate to 0% is not ASAP. But if he can find other means to pay it ASAP then that's ok as well.

Since Spain apparently has already done the deed that part doesn't need any voting anymore.

I want to thank:
- Spain and Portugal for being very cooperative here!
- Maya for willing to offer a 3rd NP city
- Japan for being cooperative and accepting the penalty
- Russia for willing to accept a downside from the beginning on
- everyone for helping to bring this to a good end

This is the deal, everybody is of COURSE allowed to deal with it IG the way they want.
IE. if Civ X doesn't want city Y on New Turbonia then they can just give it to another civ or reject it.

The Japan-penalty vote keeps running:
Yes: Metalheads, Sparta
No: -
Abstain: -

[Pitboss Celts]

I believe that any gold taken from Percia by japan should also be divvied up between Russia and Wyandot (this on top of the 9000 gold penalty)

If you seriously expect Japan to pay this 9000 gold, you must set a deadline for this to happen. If the deadline passes without payment of the gold, further penalties should be sanctioned (loss of armies, cities, etc.). It is time to rule the game with an iron fist because people can't be trusted to act properly while playing. If you leave the payment of gold open to ASAP, it can be abused.

My vote is NO until these two things are addressed.

[Robert]

Please don't complicate things.
First we agree on this penalty. This is the penalty for all that Japan has done wrong.
How it'll be executed will be dealt with as soon as the penalty is in place.

Votes so far:
Yes: Metalheads, Sparta
No: Celts
Abstain: -

[Pitboss Russia]

I have accepted but I have some concerns regarding the fine/techs.

9000g is a huge amount and if self-financed could take up to 50 turns to pay. The game will probably have been decided by then. Only Portugal really has that kind of capital to spare, I doubt it's really spare! What happens in the meantime with those techs? Are they allowed to use them? They can build Frigates and Airships now that they never would have been able to before. As a means of raising this gold can they sell the stolen techs? That would be little short of dealing in stolen goods! What happens to the Voucher/Voltan system after all this? Does everyone now get 3 bonus Vouchers? Physics takes a lot of pts to research and some Civs are a further step behind even being able to begin on it so even after 50 turns Japan could still come out on top. I liked Maya's Open Tech solution better plus the fine as well of course!

Just a few thoughts.

[Pitboss Celts]

How much gold did Japan get from this acquisition? Are we going to just let him have it to help pay for the penalty? If so, that's bull****.

If that gold is split equally among Japan, Russia and Wyandot, I'll reverse my vote to yes. If you want to talk execution of the penalty later, I'll wait. However, I think the execution of the penalty is just as important as the penalty itself. If it is voted that the penalty stands and it cannot be executed, then we have all wasted our time.

[Robert]

Can people stop making this more complicated?
The penalty is 9000 gold.

If you disagree with that, then post that you disagree.
We can have a 1 week during debate on this which will serve nothing and nobody.

Step 1: is this the penalty
Step 2: how to enforce it (and when)

First Step 1.

And regarding all questions of Russia; Japan can't sell techs b/c of no tech brokering. He can use the advantages of these techs. The penalty punishes him for this.

Japan did not get the techs for frigates and airships in an illegal way.


9000 gold penalty for Japan:
Yes: Metalheads, Sparta, Russia
No: Celts
Abstain: -

[Pitboss Portugal]

Yes to the penalty.

[Pitboss Maya]

I vote no to the 9000 gold penalty.

There is no way this will ever be paid back.

I still think making those techs illegally obtained free to everyone who does not have them is the best solution.

The techs can be confirmed by you Cyber by loading a save right after before and after Japans aquesistion of Persis, going to the diplomacy screen, and doing a compairson of Japans "tech".

Then post the obtained techs, anyone can then obtain them without need to use a voucher.

Easy, effective, and helps out the lower score civs as well.