Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[St Jon]

And are we just going to sit here while Maya does the same thing?

This stinks, and I thought we had learnt the lesson of not ignoring complains and just carrying on. Or is the truth it just depends whether you are one of the inner crowd or not.

I don't know whether that's addressed to either Cyber or me but let us face facts on this one.

I did oppose this happening from the start but nobody else said a word in support. I could, right to the end, have just been a stubborn git and refused any compromise and a sub/AI would still have been needed. This decision was made far too hastily - I argued that as well - but still took at least 5-6 turns to complete. At any point somebody could have backed me up and it would have had to be reversed, but they didn't. MMC, why did you wait until 19/03 before deciding that it was all unfair? I could have done with some support at the time!

I do agree that there is something very stange indeed that Korea going to Maya was not a done deal as well. Korea couldn't exist at all without Maya and their lands are so heavily inter-linked that even if a sub could have been found, unbelievably unlikely, that sub would have had to face the fact that they either worked with Maya or faced destruction. An AI Korea would have been eaten alive by Maya in little longer time than a merger will take to complete. Nobody could have condemned Maya for it as even at this low difficulty level the AI would have been a pain to have in your backyard. Closed borders alone would have hurt Mayan transport links and forced war.

You do only need to look at the scores - before and after - to see who the real winner is!

Japan did not 'take' all of Piercia.
It was asked to al nations who wanted some pieces. Only Russia and Japan were interested.

That is not entirely accurate Cyber. It was presented as a done deal! This was one of my big objections to it. Not a single thought was given to finding a sub for Persia just Japan will have it. As for only Japan and Russia being interested I think you forget that Wyandot had to fight very hard to get the cities that they had built for Persia back. Somehow Spain emerged with 2 cities without a word being said apart from me being somewhat disenchanted as they had been offered as part of the deal to get me to accept all this. I have ended up with a defenceless drain on my exchequer that is so unproductive that it would struggle to build a warrior far less a rifleman to defend itself. There is a 'promise' that a settler and worker will follow shortly - the worker better come as there's no way I can build one down there!

But all together none of it matches what Japan has got. This is not just a matter of number of cities it is a matter of what these cities are actually like. You can scarcely compare a size 1 hamlet, totally undeveloped land and in a different hemisphere to a fully developed size 20+ metropolis with excellent infrastructure! I don't exactly think I got a brilliant deal.

*

The fact that it has now happened doesn't make it a good thing, I agree, but it does now make it a very difficult thing to reverse as it will require a re-load right back to Piercia quitting. Remember that means the Maya/Sparta peace treaty hasn't yet been signed so it will have to be done very carefully. Most of all it must be done very quickly! It would be nice if some of the more experienced players actually spoke up on these grey areas BEFORE the deeds have been signed!

[OzzyKP]

I spoke up for you very early on Russia. Don't forget!

[Pinchak]

Did the Wyandots get back their two Persian cities?

This should have happened if it didn't.

[Pitboss Natives]

Did the Wyandots get back their two Persian cities?

This should have happened if it didn't.

It has occured. Japan handed over the cities of Le'O and New Kho'Per to Wyandot control and the Wyandot gave up any claim to the city of Horse Valley in return for a Uranium resource once it becomes available for trade.

[St Jon]

I spoke up for you very early on Russia. Don't forget!

True Ozzy you did but the extent of that was 1 post stating that it was all too hasty. I'm sorry but that is not the kind of pressure that needed to be applied. It would have taken me, newest player not just in BtP but to CivIV MP in any form, to have fought a pitched battle against a 'done deal' just presented to the game! Nobody was actually 'asked' if they agreed to any of this and nobody was ever informed that, again an uninterested party on the continent, Spain was going to be the proud owner of 2 cities for no effort! The deal to do this via Portugal was never even mentioned and again just was presented as a faite accompli! The fact that those cities had been offerred to me as part of a carrot to get me to stop complaining and accept it all was not even considered! I think there has been only one real winner and it certainly wasn't me!

Did the Wyandots get back their two Persian cities?

This should have happened if it didn't.

Yes they did, but only grudgingly and a steadfast refusal to accept a promise that they would be given 'after' completion of this 'done deal'!

This was wrong from start to finish. It should have actually been debated prior to handover. There was no rush, as I pointed out at the time, as Pierca was prepared to play on until a sub or solution had been found.

Maya/Korea is totally different. Maya actually suffers in short-medium term and Korea has nothing really to offer. Small cities with little resource and poor infrastructure. How could anyone have taken them on as a replacement? I may want an island and a city, I doubt I'll get any dispute as the Mayan economy must be creaking with the weight it's now under, just because I need some land to expand into which I can actually reach and defend.

I don't really want the rubbish I have got from this deal over Persia but I was determined to get something, if only as a gesture. It may 'stink', as you say Rome, but it's done now and really there is no going back! I do still want to know where Persia's gold went and reckon that I am at least deserving of a fair share of that!

Let's end this now, if others now realise how much it 'stinks', then pause/re-load or if not play on. It must be done now or forgotten completely. We cannot have another drawn out battle outside of the armies in the game.

[Robert]

Russia: the land you got in New Sparta is awesome. There's room for at least 5 more cities. There are resources, etc.!

[Pitboss Japan]

What I don't get is why we are fighting over what has already happened. We need to just move on.

[Pitboss Russia]

Russia: the land you got in New Sparta is awesome. There's room for at least 5 more cities. There are resources, etc.!

I ask you to study the attached map - I apologise as my graphical skills are not great - and see just why Russia does not feel New Sparta to be quite so awesome as you would have it seem. I concede New Sparta has a lot of space to develope and build new cities. It has a huge supply of Silk and some Pig as well. Further North there are some other resources but the one Russia really needs lies at the northernmost tip and has been taken already by Sparta herself - Oil!

In terms of strategic value to Russia you will see that physically there is no shipping lane to be found to the West. I have very roughly drawn a route that a vessel would need to travel to reach the nearest Russian port by going East. Not only is the journey so long that the crewmen will likely be dead of old age before they see land it also passes through the territorial waters of at least 5 states. You must be able to see just how huge an investment in men and materials it will take for Russia to begin to gain any reward. Compare the relative distance to New Portugal and see why the change in the deal on offer was quite such a blow.

[Robert]

Maybe Spain is willing to trade your NS cities for NP cities.
Just try to make an in-game trade.

[Pitboss Russia]

Technical Problem with OOS Patch

Yes - a real post not a protest!

It seems a number of us are using the OOS patch to stop the sync problem late game in straight MP. This is no problem for Turn playing, if you in there on your own, but causing the game to just go into a fit of sync errors if people join you with a different set-up. Yesterday Maya and Russia were playing our turns without problem, we both have the patch installed, but when Portugal joined the game just went crazy in a fit of error messages until they logged out again. I guess Ozzy must also use it as he came in and there was no problem.

So should we have a convention on this. Like how many of us do use the patch and how many don't? It can be uninstalled if need be but is harmless and you wont notice any difference in the game itself. I would recommend that everyone should have it as it is a working solution to a known game bug but has little impact on a game like this.

Any suggestions/preferences?

[Robert]

Maybe you can explain how we can install this patch.
It won't harm any of us if we just all install it, I guess.

[St Jon]

The patch is found here:~

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183979

It really is meant to deal with amphibious landings in normal MP but is very useful.

Truly it has no impact on the game SP or in a game like this when you are always going to have times to play without anybody else in there clashing.

[OzzyKP]

I don't have the patch installed. But I'm fine with whatever people decide.

I think at a minimum, those New Portugal cities that were previously promised to Russia and then given to Spain, should be given to Russia.

[OzzyKP]

I don't have the patch installed. But I'm fine with whatever people decide.

I think at a minimum, those New Portugal cities that were previously promised to Russia and then given to Spain, should be given to Russia.

[Pitboss Natives]

I have now installed the patch.