Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [OOC Chat Thread]

[Pitboss Vikings]

just remember capo you could have got iron from me cheaper !!!!

[deity]

Damn it guys.

Note that my post on this way back has been edited out by me.

I really did not want to make bad friends out of this which is more important to me than anything else. I just wanted a debate on the issue like we've had in other games which led to future rule changes - they got a bit heated too so I should have known better. Apologies.

Are we cool? No gaskets broken?

[Pitboss Japan]

If we got rid of the tech voucher system we wouldn't have these talks. Just a thought.

[Robert]

We would have other talks, believe me

[Pitboss Japan]

well lets talk about getting rid of the voucher system or at least bumping the vouchers up for the bottom 5

[Pitboss Persia]

Edited out : wrong thread.

[Pitboss Vikings]

the last few DIPLO games must have been terrible to paly in to have to bring this TECH voucher system in

Limiting every civ to only 15 techs traded will obviously open the gap betwen the top and obtom civs.

Perhaps we shpuld only all ow tech trading with bottom 5 civs. No tech trading with any civs in the top 10.

[Pitboss Persia]

No, this would be way too easy. There would be no more real trade, only gifts. The voucher system is there for preventing a couple of civs from trading only with each-other, not for preventing trades as a whole.

[Pitboss Spain]

I know I said the wedding was today, but due to a very busy day I will write up the story. Just letting you guys know in advance.

[Pitboss Vikings]

Originally posted by Pitboss Persia
No, this would be way too easy. There would be no more real trade, only gifts. The voucher system is there for preventing a couple of civs from trading only with each-other, not for preventing trades as a whole.

Exactly gifitng techs to bottom 5 civs would make the game more fun for them.

but anyway

I also dont see how limiting trades to only 15 prevents two civs doing all that trading between themselves. I guess i am jsut stupid, but please explain how this voucher system prevents what you describe.

[Robert]

Ras, I've already explained it several times. You just have an image in your head and you wil not let it go, no matter how good our explanations are.

But I'll try it one more time:
In diplogames we want to avoid two things:
- everybody knows the exact same techs, making the tech-race a joke
- some players dominate the game while others are far behind

It's between those two lines we have to move.
If we allow an unlimmited ammount of techs to be traded, everybody will know the same number of techs. That's how it goes if everyone can trade with everyone.
We'll also get fixed-alliances based on tech-research. The game will be boring and predictable.

If we allow only a few techs to be traded, nobody is going to gift techs to the bottom civs.

The solution is the voucher system.
It gives a difference in technical knowledge, some civs are more advanced then other civs.
It gives the bottom civs a change to learn as much techs from other nations as the top-civs.
I avoids fixed-alliances based on tech-trading

The game mechanics make sure that nobody falls too far behind. (Because techs become cheaper each time a new civ discovers it. For civ 18 code of laws is much easie to develop then for civ 1)

Top civs are willing to give techs to the bottom civs.

We can drop the 15-trades cap, but then the game will become boring and predictable. We can drop the vouchers, but then the bottom civs will not get any tech anymore.

The 15-tech trades system combined with the voucher system works pretty well. I don't understand your complainst against it.

[Pitboss Spain]

It is confusing trying to keep up with al the diplomacy since there are so many different means. Trying to keep up on the PMs and civtstat and email messages can be quite confusing.

[Pitboss Vikings]

As i say , diplo is not what it used to be.

But that is obviously not an issue for you guys.

When i played diplo before, we had tech races between the top civs, the top civs would GIFT techs to weaker civs, everyone was happy.

Obviously over the past few years this has changed.

i always thought i was part of this diplo community but i am not, you guys have established a new group dynamics

no one supports the changes i want so at conclusion of this game (2 yeara awway) i will put away my diplo ideals and put civ discs at bottom of drawer and go find something else to wile away the time.

[Heraclitus]

Well using only PM's and emails might be for the best.


Also Cyber you said you refused tech trades? I had a long term deal with Piercia. Where we where slated to trade two techs for two techs (the specific techs should be know to both Rome and Pierica by now)


As part of the deal I already gave Currency, if this trade hasn't happened this would explain why Rome is falling behind so badly (the Oldonians, the same bunch who whine so badly and annoying are nearly equals to Rome).


I would kindly ask that both Piercia and the New Rome carry the deal out regardless of the status of other deals. The deal is good for both civs. I would have carried out the deal when I was in control, but I feared the backlash from other civs if I got first place in score (Portugal was a mere 30 points ahead of me back then and the trade would have made Rome the top civ), I choose to postpone it (telling the Piercians they will give me the tech once I give them the second one). I assumed that the trade would be carried out by Cyber or the permsub....

Tech trades deals are very important and transcend day to day relations and should be honored in almost all circumstances, since they use up a extremely valuable resource. An example of this was how I honored the deal I made with Holland in HOTW12, to whom I promised astronomy in exchange for a tech earlier in the game. Despite our relations cooling by the time I got the tech, I would never dream of cheating them of the tech I owed them. I gave them the tech the moment they asked for it... the reason for this is that trust in tech deals is vital beyond all else, since in other deals other reparations can be made, but the only replacement for a voucher is a voucher.


The new Rome is off course free to chart his own foreign policy as he pleases, but it would be down right stupid to waste a voucher by not carrying out hte deal.

@Rome: I've noticed you changed tech priorities, this is again your right, I just ask you to consider going back to the tech later. I was going for since the tech enables something very valuable for you and Rome has already invested hundreds of beakers into it. Those beakers will start disappearing in lets say 5-10 turns and will represent a great loss of capital Rome can't afford.


I'm sorry to be meddling (even with advice) into the affairs of your civ, but this is mostly due to the fact I had to leave suddenly and didn't have time to finish up the things I should have finished up before leaving.

[Heraclitus]

Khmer 431
Portugal 408
Greece 351
Maya 338
Persia 331
Inca 322
Rome 312
Vikings 298
Japan 181



I think that either the Roman player should point out to the other civs that he isn't a top dog anymore... and that the internation community should help the new regime out by droping at least *some* of Rome's debt. OR the Oldonians should stop whining.


Come to think of it they should stop whining in any case. Also why do the Oldonians fear a Japanese attack so much? The poor civ is a hundred points behind them, I would actually think it a good thing if they managed to win a war against oldonia since it would help them get back on their feet.