Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [OOC Chat Thread]

[Pitboss Portugal]

objective

Taking about that what are the chances that the same person over and over out from 12-18 people every game will start these debates.

Conclusion you need to take a big breath and let it go whatever is making you do this.

[Robert]

There's been a 2:1 trade and a 3:2 trade.

I've never tried to set people up against you. What I Did was:
- raising a question
- when there came no answer I said that it's not an OOC issue anymore but someting that at most could be handled in-game.

That last is something I'm trying to do for all issues. Make it an in-game thing.

If you would've just given a small explanation earlier then this wouldn't have come to this point. But I'm glad that we talked about it now, and I think that we've reached each other somewhere in the middle.

thanks for that.

[Pitboss Portugal]

If you would've just given a small explanation earlier then this wouldn't have come to this point. But I'm glad that we talked about it now, and I think that we've reached each other somewhere in the middle.

That explanation was given by the Japs themselves.

Actually I think that is what bothered people the most, not believeing that actually the Japs were happy with their trade. Thus they kept at the subject

[The Capo]

I think Cybershy is technically right that the trade may not have been fair, from a general perspective. But Cybershy you fail to recognize how much Japan wanted whatever tech they got, and you fail to recognize that (and I am pretty sure I'm right about this) Japan was the one who asked for the trade.

But none of that matters. You have no right to police this Cybershy, Japan and Portugal made a trade and that's within their sovreign right to do so. If you think its unfair you think its unfair and that is your problem.

Something similar happened with me (Korea) and Greece. Korea is a pretty "backward" and small country in this game, and Greece is large, powerful, and a production-power-house. I made a trade with Greece that was pretty lop-sided; the Greek player gave me Iron "for life" (now that I think about it they can take this away at any time, whether they say they will or not) and I gave them a pretty good technology (for the era) in exchange. No vouchers were exchanged or anything like that. After the trade was made it dawned on me how wholly unfair the entire thing was, especially considering the Greeks told me they would provide me with Iron a week prior and never made good on that promise. Then they decided that they would only give it to me as a bargaining chip for this tech they wanted. Sorry to the Greek player for bringing this up, I'm not trying to call you out, I am just pointing out that this kind of stuff happens a lot. Anyway, the point is unfair deals occur all the time and usually it is the bigger civ picking on the smaller civ. So if you are going to police Portugal for making unfair deals you are going to have to police EVERYONE.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: In fact, this trade is probably worse than the Portugal/Japan trade because there was a level of "intimidation," based on the proximity and power of Greece, not on actual words. And of course Korea loses a voucher while Greece loses nothing but an extra resource... to sum it up; I'm an idiot.

[Pitboss Spain]

You have to remember that not all techs are equal and sometimes a 3 for one tech swap could mean that the one who is giving one tech away could be giving it away for some much cheaper techs, making it a great deal. The numbers can be deceiving if you do not know the full value of the trades. One thing I do not like is the jumping to conclusions that has been done about "lopsided" trades. Such things happen in the game all the time and if the civ that traded two techs does not like the deal, then obviously they would not agree to it. Also why does someone need to explain there actions if they are well within the structures of the game? IF the host was worried that it was a violation, then he could have done this via PM and stopped the mess that this has become. Surely we can be diplomatic when we are on the forums also. We shouldn't about a possible since it will make this a game for everyone. So please be or I will : my position

[Pitboss Japan]

What part of drop it does no one understand? I really didn't want everyone to know thanks to Portugal my military is the best on my side of the world. And I do not consider the Trades I have done "trading away my future" if anything I'm insuring my future. I know you might not see it now but wait till we are done then you will know what I am talking about.

[Robert]

If what The Capo says about Greece and Korea then I think that Greece took advantage of Korea as well, which is bad form imho.

Explain yourself, Greece.

[Pitboss Vikings]

so portugul is a regular in your games here and sounds like a few of the regulars actually knwo who it is.

I was peerplexed earlier in game when Cyber posted how badly Portugal had treated rome and this then caused rome to goto war with Portugul.

cyber your continued calls for this to be taken to IG are concerning me.

Portugul may or may not have done the moralistic thing, but they have broken no rules.

So lets not take this IG it is an Outof Game discussion only.

Portugul have armed Japan to crush Oldonia.

I should be the one getting upsset. Not anyone esle.

Japan is not strong enough to take on as top civ and by the time they are then they will be behind in military tech again , so only one nation they could possibly be trageting on this continent.

But i am not jumping up and down as it is part of the game. Not good for me. But still allowed.



But seeing as so many of the regs seem to know which civ is which i have had enough of the Anon we newbies are forced to endure.

[Robert]

I was peerplexed earlier in game when Cyber posted how badly Portugal had treated rome and this then caused rome to goto war with Portugul.

Ok, maybe I should watch out a bit more what I write.
Those comments regarding Rome/Portugal were made by me as a sub. I subbed for Rome and advised him, but maybe I should not do that anymore.

I never saw Rome's attack as a result of what I said, but if it is then I am sorry.

[Robert]

And regarding who's who, it's obvious that it becomes more and more known who's who. The choises are becoming limited. Many civs are known to everyone.

I don't officially know who Portugal is, but I have my ideas.
Portugal thinks he knows which civ I am playing.... he very well may be wrong there though (as a matter of fact: I wish I were that civ he thinks that I am, since that would mean that I would be doing better then ever in diplogames )

[Pitboss Vikings]

Well as i havent played against most of you hard to know whos who.

I can guess who deity is by his style. i may be wrong though.

But others i owuldnt know.

[Pitboss Japan]

If it makes you feel better Raz I'm not gunning to kill you any more

[The Capo]

Don't get me wrong everyone, I just re-read what I wrote and it wasn't that clear. I'm not really complaining about the deal, I am just explaining that's what's "fair" isn't always how things are going to go and sometimes you get duped, or sometimes you rush to judgement and make a mistake. I don't blame Greece, were I in their shoes I may have done the same thing, but I wasn't.

My point by bringing it up was that sometimes lop-sided trades go down because one side needs something really bad and is willing to give away more than they need to/should sometimes. That's all.

If there are issues over things concerning trades they should be handled in the story thread, where they belong. Not debated here out of character.

And Japan is right, we should drop the issue, because its between Portugal and Japan and that's the end of it.

[Pitboss Portugal]

I have decided to move on and let it be as well.

[Pitboss Greece]

Originally posted by CyberShy
If what The Capo says about Greece and Korea then I think that Greece took advantage of Korea as well, which is bad form imho.

Explain yourself, Greece.

Well, maybe I did exploit the situation a bit, but:
- I never threatened Korea with war!
- I gave Korea a 3 options:
a. exchange the tech for eternal iron
b. exchange the tech for a voucher
c. exchange the tech for another tech

I included in that message that if they would pick b. or c. that I would then supply them with iron nevertheless, as I had promised. Korea took a. themselves. (maybe for political reasons)

- Korea offered iron in exchange for that tech themselves! And only for a limited period (10 turns). That's why I made that offer! I thought that Korea wanted to return something for the iron I gave.

- I have offered a lot of things to Korea, special city places, protection, techs and resources. It's not as if I'm taking advantage of Korea. The early border deal might have been in my favour, but hen we both were still small. I consider that deal to be just good diplomacy from my part. Later I tried to make things more equal by offering lands to Korea.

- I have protected Korea's right to settle on the land bridge
- a tech for eternal iron is pretty much an even deal, imho. Eternal iron is quite a lot. I'd give a tech voucher for iron, coal or oil if I would lack it for sure.

- when this deal was made I was 7th or 8th score-wise, Korea was 12th or 13th. Right now things may be totally different, me being 3rd and Korea being somewhere near the bottom.

I understand that The Capo wrote his post not to accuse me, but just to explain that bad deals / on sided deals happen once in a while, but I feel the need to defend myself now.

But if you guys think that I have threatened Korea unfair then I'm still willing to put options b and c on the table. No problem for me. I just want to explain that I never tried to exploit or take advantage of Korea. They picked the 'a' deal, not me. And I had the intention to supply them with eternal iron, no matter what they would chose.

Maybe things got lost in translation.

Last: It's Sparta, not Greece