Possible Diplogame Mod

[The Capo]

Who cares? It looks better!

[The Capo]

That isn't the flag we are going to use.

[Pitboss Korea]

Well I added the new American-flavored units to the mod. Just one last point to make about the "reality" behind it; obviously America wasn't a country back then, but there are what if units. There are Roman Riflemen wearing the classic Roman helmet and everything in this mod, there are Cedltic Riflemen who are dressed like Scots, which you could argue is not accurate either. The idea is just to add flavor and add something fun and new so its just more interesting. I've done a lot of work on this so far, and I would really appreciate more input.

So far here are the features of the Diplogame mod;

-Diverse units for each civ, there is HARDLY any overlap in the graphics, the Cuirassier has been renamed "Heavy Horseman" and the Maceman has been renamed "Heavy Footman." The abilities and tech route to these units remains the same though, only the graphics have changed. This will make photoshop images like we've seen from Greece and from Ozzy in the past will be far more interesting now.

-Certain flags and colors have been changed, these include; Natives, Inca, America, England, Vikings, Greeks, Russians, Spain, Ottomans, Arabs, Persians, Carthage, Korea (that's what I remember off-hand at least).

-No civilization has only one leader, the leaders that have been added are Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il, Hirohito, 18 Rabbit, Pachacuti, Tecumseh, Itzcoatl, Nelson Mandela, Haile Selassie, Sundiata Keita, Sargon, Nebuchadrezzar, Harun al-Rashid, Basil II, Charles V, Wilhelmina, Harald Hardrada, Franco and Henry the Navigator (he is in the game as Henry of Viseu). These leaders have different trait combos from their civ's original leader, so hopefully we'll see more diversity in civ choices.

-There is an Inquisitor unit that can now remove non-state religions from your city, which I hope will make religion more of a diplomatic tool than it has been in the past.

There are a few issues that need discussion, and here are those;

-Exact specifications of the Inquisitor, I posted earlier what the current situation is, I want to edit it down but I'd like the Diplo-community's blessings and insight before I make any decisions.

-Should we add the SuperSpy mod? I am going to go through with it, some people have told me in IMs that it MAY be too powerful, but I want to hear more before I go through with it, I was actually thinking of putting it in tonight.

-Ras has suggested we add embassy buildings for all of the civilizations that would allow contact. Initially he proposed that after contact is made an embassy/language tech would be required before talking to the civ. This issue is up in the air and seems very complicated to me, but we can figure something out here. We should discuss this as well.

-MMC and I were toying with the idea of adding UN units to the game. I don't want to get into too many specifics on how they would work at this point, because tehre are a lot of ideas as to what their abilities would be, but in general does anybody think we should add them at all?

Again, and I am trying to stress this, I am doing this for future Diplogames, so I really need feedback from other Diplogamers. I also want to set up a small test game, normal or quick speed, standard or small earth maybe five to six civs, pitboss (long timer, maybe thirty hours if possible) just to see how everything works, especially the Inquisitor and the Spy.

At the risk of getting far too ahead of myself, which I may have already done. There is a mod out there that has like forty religions (although only seven will show up in a given game) and the basic idea is that you set the game to choose religion and you actually get to pick the religion that suits your country (this could be helpful for storyline purposes). There are a lot, but some examples are; Nahuatalism (I butchered that, its the Aztec/Mayan religion), Amun-Ra, Voodoo, Aesirism, Celtic Paganism, Hellenism, Zoroastrianism etc.

So for instance; if you discover Monotheism you could choose Celtic Paganism instead of Judaism if you prefer to do that.

Now, even if we don't agree to these changes, they are the types of the things that are good for the mod. We don't want to get too strict with things because it could interfere with open diplomacy but we also don't want to waver off track too much, which could harm balance. The religion thing is an example of the kind of things that don't harm balance but add more possible creativity instead. So its something to think about, and I want to thank everyone who's been giving suggestions or ideas even if they don't think they're helping they really are.

So let me know what you guys think.

[Pitboss Persia]

Nelson Mandela ? For which civ ? Zoulou, or what ?

Well there is something that crossed my mind, and that you may find inspiring, even if too complicated as it is.

How about having a relation table for each civ ? You could tell for instance, you get -5 for declaring war on my ally, just like AI does in SP, but you may modify it manually for each (encountered) civ ?

What about tech-vouchers ? Is there no way to include them as a game-mechanic, so that something like the "tech trade thread" may be oblsolete, and you wouldn't have to tell everybody each time you use a voucher ?

Civ-specific unit graphics are nice, but how about civ-specific units ? Like a 10% bonus against melee units for english longbows for instance ? Nothing big, just small differences for everybody. I would love to see Aztecan Macemen with +10% against gunpowder, and Portuguese muskets with +10% against melee. It wouldn't modify the balance that much, but would really be a nice story and tactics element.

And there is another thing that would be usefull. A messenger unit. Can only defend (and sucks at it), ignores terrain for movement and can enter other civ's borders even without open borders. It could have three movement points and cost almost no hammers. If we push this really far, we could use this unit to establish ambassys that work just like in the Rhyes and Fall mod. If you don't "see" a nation for 15 turns, and don't have an ambassy there, you can't contact it anymore.

my 2 cents...

sorry if i repeated something already mentionned, i haven't read all the 7 pages.

[MMC]

Actually most of what you have said is pretty good and echos a lot of what Capo and I have discussed via IM.

Are you suggesting replacing UUs with a concept of each Civ has it's own variants of each unit (so every unit is effectively a UU). This would be very time consuming to produce, but could make civ choices have a much bigger impact on the outcome. This could then help make people swap around which leaders they pick, which in turn would make Ozzy happy.

Also, if we already have unique graphics for each civ, then adding unique traits to each unit would only be xml work...

Also, I like the messenger idea, as Capo can attest. The only part I don't agree with is the losing contact idea. In a Diplogame, there are so many ways of making contact outside of the game, it's easy to forget whether or not you've kept or lost contact in-game... So it might be a good idea for regular MP, or even ladders, but losing contact over time would work in a Diplo. but messengers (Civ2 Diplomats anyone?) would be a great idea.

[Pitboss Korea]

Originally posted by Pitboss Persia
Nelson Mandela ? For which civ ? Zoulou, or what ?

Yeah, I wanted a different type of leader from Shaka, so I went with Mandela (it was originally Mangosuthu the current Zulu King), and I was going to change the tribe name to Nguni which would encompass both Mandela's ethnicity and the Zulu's, but I felt that it was really unnecessary to begin with. The only real reason I went with most of these leaders was so you can play the mod in singleplayer format and it would still look nice. All of the new leaderheads are really fantastic.

Well there is something that crossed my mind, and that you may find inspiring, even if too complicated as it is.

How about having a relation table for each civ ? You could tell for instance, you get -5 for declaring war on my ally, just like AI does in SP, but you may modify it manually for each (encountered) civ ?

This something I have seen in many mods, and I like it. I don't know that it will have much of an effect on Diplogames though, you can't really control how people feel about eachother, so I have considered this but decided not to put it in. If everyone wants it in though I can look it up, but as I've said before, those of you with suggestions could really help me out by figuring out how to do it and then letting me know. I really am no expert on modding so everything is a learning process for me. Don't let this bother you though, I've done really good work so far, and in fact when I play SP now I use the mod.

What about tech-vouchers ? Is there no way to include them as a game-mechanic, so that something like the "tech trade thread" may be oblsolete, and you wouldn't have to tell everybody each time you use a voucher?

This is another thing that I want to do, the only issue I see with this is that we'd have to set it to only occur when a tech is given or traded away. I'm not sure how to do this, so again if you guys want to help me out I would appreciate it.

Civ-specific unit graphics are nice, but how about civ-specific units ? Like a 10% bonus against melee units for english longbows for instance ? Nothing big, just small differences for everybody. I would love to see Aztecan Macemen with +10% against gunpowder, and Portuguese muskets with +10% against melee. It wouldn't modify the balance that much, but would really be a nice story and tactics element.

This I would personally shy away from. I think this would be a LOT of work, and may be beyond the scope of my expertise, at least right now. But that said, I don't know that giving civ-specific promotions would be well-received by the rest of the community and I think in a very real sense it would upset balance, even in a small degree and that's what we are trying to avoid.

And there is another thing that would be usefull. A messenger unit. Can only defend (and sucks at it), ignores terrain for movement and can enter other civ's borders even without open borders. It could have three movement points and cost almost no hammers. If we push this really far, we could use this unit to establish ambassys that work just like in the Rhyes and Fall mod. If you don't "see" a nation for 15 turns, and don't have an ambassy there, you can't contact it anymore.

There was a very similar unit called an "envoy" in the original mod I was making for Diplogames, but that mod was scrapped and this one doesn't have the unit. To reiterate what MMC said though; I don't think we can control what civs make deals, it would only have an effect on trades, and again I don't know how to impliment the Rhye's contact-loss thing either. So, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, if you want something in the mod it will be much easier for me if you found out how to do it and let me know.

my 2 cents...

sorry if i repeated something already mentionned, i haven't read all the 7 pages.

Thanks for giving me some feedback. A few other questions to Piercia though; Do you have any interest in making the title background image for the Diplogame mod? And also do you have any interest in being on the test team? When the mod is done to make sure everything runs smoothly in MP?

[Pitboss Rome]

I think Praetorians should be renamed into Legions and should be able to build roads and forts.

[Pitboss Persia]

The image would be a nice task for me. Send me a PM about what you need on the image for getting the menu in, and what you would like to actually be on it, so that once i'm done with it, it will be a small surprise for the others .

However, i won't have time to test the mod. There are a few games that are released this month that i will play alot, and from monday on, summer hollidays are over. I think BtP will be the only Civ-thing i'll still take all the time needed for.

I am sorry, but i know even less about modding as you do, so apart from giving ideas, i can't help.

[MMC]

Originally posted by Pitboss Rome
I think Praetorians should be renamed into Legions and should be able to build roads and forts.

Actually not a bad idea. Although to make it fair, I'd suggest a seperate 'Combat Engineer' that could fight like a Warrior, and also build roads and forts.

Although what would make it even better still, would be to make it a promotion (like the medic promotion) instead of a seperate unit.

[The Capo]

I would be against changing much about the units. That isn't what this mod is for. Although we could make the legions like they were in Civ III rise/fall of Rome scenarios (they could build forts and roads) but I think that would make the unit too powerful. You could build roads on long expanses with what is practically the most dominant ancient unit. We could always knock their strength from 8 to 7 or something, so Axes have a better chance against them. But again, I don't want to get too ridiculous here, and you give an inch they take a mile so we'll try to keep things relegated to enhancing the Diplogame rather than the regular game.

And also you can't be Rome every game anyway, so what do you care? Sometimes other people, like me, want to be Rome.

With all of that said I have an update; last night MMC and I tried to change the Inquisitor to be built only under Theocracy. We noticed that this didn't work out, so we used the Organized Religion/Monastery thing and tried to use the same code on the Theocracy civic but with Cathedrals instead of Monasteries. So in essence you can build the Inquisitor as long as their is a Cathedral present in your city, and its your state religion, and you are running Organized Religion or Paganism. All of these things have to be in effect for the Inquisitor. If you are in Theocracy you don't need a Cathedral but you do need the religion present in the city and that religion as your state religion. Now, so far this doesn't seem to work.

Initially the graphics didn't work after we changed it (but I fixed that) so now I've got to figure out how to make this work properly. I am going to test it again right now and hopefully I'll have a better explanation as to why this is happening.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by MMC


Actually not a bad idea. Although to make it fair, I'd suggest a seperate 'Combat Engineer' that could fight like a Warrior, and also build roads and forts.

Although what would make it even better still, would be to make it a promotion (like the medic promotion) instead of a seperate unit.

That is a great idea. A combat engineer promotion, Perhaps split the abilities into three tiers.

First tier, can build roads, slowly.
Second tier, can build roads as fast as workers, can clear forest slowly.
Third tier, can build forts, can clear jungle slowly.


Legions would start with tier one, you would need a great general to get to tier three.

We should put combat one as a condition to the first tier.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by The Capo

And also you can't be Rome every game anyway, so what do you care? Sometimes other people, like me, want to be Rome.

Ehh I was suggesting an improvement to the mod, not trying to make my civ more powerful.

[MMC]

The (revised) idea is to add the promotion for everyone to use, but allow the Roman Legions to start with the basic version.

It actually makes sense, and doesn't really over-power them. They still need to stop and spend time building the roads, which wouldn't give them fortify bonuses. So they'd be standing still like sitting ducks.

[The Capo]

If you want to make the Combat Engineer promotion part of the mod I wouldn't be against that, and then Praetorians get free CE Promos, that's fine, but you guys have to look it up and get a button made and everything (that looks good).

MMC I got the Inquisitor to work out just like we liked, under Theocracy you can build an Inquisitor, you can't build them at all under Pacifism or Free Religion, you can only build them under Paganism and Organized religion with a Cathedral. So that's fine, but the button to purge the religion doesn't show up now. I think that's becuase we changed the tag-lines for the units, so I just have to figure out how to do that.

@Rome; I wasn't being serious, I was joking about it because I tried TWICE to be Rome in HOTW games and both games sputtered out. So it was a (bad) inside joke, that probably even the "insiders" didn't get.

Plus considering the latest info I don't think anyone thinks you want to be Rome that badly.

I don't want to get side-tracked though, I haven't got the Inquisitor to work yet and still haven't begun putting the superspy in. So before we start editing units, or talking about making them all unique units we should get the important things finished, the bells and whistles next.

But I'll check if you are online MMC, I have the day off (because of 9/11), and we can try and figure all of this out. Then we'll start talking about Combat Engineer Upgrades.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by The Capo
MMC I got the Inquisitor to work out just like we liked, under Theocracy you can build an Inquisitor, you can't build them at all under Pacifism or Free Religion, you can only build them under Paganism and Organized religion with a Cathedral.

Sounds like a great way of handling it.