HOTW XII Diplogame Organization Thread. Part 2

[Asmodeous]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
People won't accept change, don't ask me why they just don't. I think it was Diplo France who proposed a better system. But it got shot down by Carpathia.

Actually it was me, prior to the anonymity, and it was shot down by Deity, Lz, and others.

My suggestion was to base it on how long the people had the tech in question for, not number of techs. I was told that we would do it as is because my suggestion of what would be the problem, that being that the divide between the "haves" and the "have nots" becoming increasingly wide and decimating the "have nots" ability to compete in... anything.

Well, as can be evidenced by Nols' statements about what Russia seems to be going through, I think my point is proven.

So when it was said that my suggestion would be talked about if there was deemed a problem, and it's fairly evident that there's a problem when someone takes over a civ, plays for about 1/2 of a session, and says "Yeah, they're screwed, because they're already low on things to trade and it's getting worse fast," is it time to talk about it yet?



Me.

[Diplo Russia]

Yes, I've been a bit absent in the "out of the actual game" stuff, work went a bit nuts on me and I have a few other RL projects that have taken up a huge amount of my time.

I'm very sorry about that and promise that I will do as much as I can to catch up. (I have to go through and check all the email still for christ's sake, I'm going to do that and reply to any emails sent to me as soon as I get done with this post, don't know if I will have time to post any story stuff up right now because I'm doing this AT work while I'm working with a client, which is not conducive to continued employment if anyone notices. :| )

A few things to respond to:

1. Yes, Daylight Savings is a pisser. I have no problem, if Nols is willing, with running the session until 3am my time and having Nols take over. I'm very confident in her abilities, as I've played with her on many occasions, and consider her to honestly be better than I am in infrastructure building, easily, although I think i coudl take her in a war. . .

2. About tech: Yes. Russia is a large, technologically backwards behemoth. I was going through getting all the early infrastructure stuff, when suddenly I was set upon by the barbarian ARMADA. I managed, through some diplomatic wrangling and some strategic city placements, to acquire what is roughly 1/4 of the main continent entirely to myself. The downside of it is about 1/2 of that is almost entirely tundra areas and ice, so it hasn't been settled as of yet, which meant that (since I didn't have the scouts/warriors to dot the landscape at the time) the barbarians came in force. So I had to switch gears to beeline my way to ironworking (since I had no other strat resources yet in order to be able to fight back the hordes. At this point in time, I noticed I was steadily going bankrupt, so I had to rip through CoL to Currency, at which point I realized (while researching Monarchy) that my people had no freaking clue what Pots were.

It's amazing how Diplogames manage to distract you from your normal evolution of play by "Oh crap the people are screwed."

Anyway, so now Russia is very isolated and technologically backwards, because we were rightfully worried more about our own skins than the petty squabbles of the outsiders from beyond the mountains, and I've been watching the gap widen. That's going to make me very unable to trade very soon. I'm still wondering how I'm going to pay back the tech gift I got. I'm sure I'll think of something... somewhere. Good times though.

3. Russia has been fairly busy being xenophobic behind their little mountains, what with the barbarian raiders being their main contact with outsiders, so I'm going to catch up everything with one post explaining all of that, and explaining the slow shift away from that due to the Nols influence (because she's awesome), and work that in. It may not be up for a couple days. I've got a "weekend" coming up, but I can give no guarantees due to the aforementioned project I've been working on (trying to set up a business with some people so I can get out of my dead-end job. . .), and the fact that I've got another side project starting soon irl that I will have to devote some time to.

All in all I'm a busy beaver, but I'm trying really hard. Apologies again! I really did not see this coming when the diplogame was being put together!

[Diplo Russia]

Originally posted by Diplo Holland


Actually the more behind civs can do deals with advanced civs to get a tech down one path whilst another path is resaerched by the adv civ.

Not really.

You have to remember something. On top of the "Only 10 tech trades", No Tech Brokering is also on.

This screws those of us who are behind.

I'm having trouble trying to find people to trade techs with already because the people who are willing to trade what paltry techs I have for techs they have have "fluff" techs that really do me no good available, because they recevied the techs I want from someone else, and the people who actually researched the techs I want and can trade with me are so far ahead that they either have the techs I can trade already, or are unwilling to trade away the techs I want for what I have or can reasonably have in the future (unless I completely gimp my growth for a single tech by forcing my research down a path they need, helping them at my expense) so I can't get any of the more advanced and useful techs, I can only get the Garbage techs that I can research in 5-7 turns anyway.

The divide is growing, and the system is going to need to be changed now or you're going to see people either dropping or going through the motions until someone realizes that they have tanks and the neighbors can only muster Musketmen and they just move to crush them.

It's becomming nonsensical already, and I would find it safe to say that the situation is far worse than the situation that was in HOTWXI that this method was trying to solve.

As I believe a few people predicted.

The attitude is already evident. There's three posts in this thread of people saying "I'm having a hard time justifying helping someone out because I only have 2-3 trades left."

[OzzyKP]

Conquer someone and make them give you techs.... or else.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Conquer someone and make them give you techs.... or else.

Oh, so thats what America is doing!

[Diplo Russia]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Conquer someone and make them give you techs.... or else.

I have spearmen and axemen.

The majority of you have Knights, Musketmen, and Catapults (I don't even have construction yet, this is the point I'm trying to get across I might have picked it up last session and don't remember though).

Not going to happen.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Diplo Carpathia
Hey, just to let you guys know, im still in it and all.

Although my empire is in shambles, I will post and play on.

Truth be told, I was just flat out pissed off at how badly the war went. I jumped the gun, and paid the price. I think part of it was that I was so eager for war that settler looked like a good excuse. Just wanted to shake things up a bit.

Overextended and premature were my downfalls. Believe it or not, I am actually pretty good in multiplayer (played in Rah's saturday night game for over a year before switching to HOTW12). Honestly though, the marathon setting did throw me more off target than I would have been otherwise, that was really the only Diplogame 'noob' aspect of it. I expected to be able to replenish my city defences in much less turns. I usually play on normal or quick speed in multigames.

Hats off to you Ozzy for your stomping of my defence, not that there was much of it.

As far as me not communicating, part of it was i was pissed, part was I didn't want to make any rash decisions (i think someone mentioned shock earlier?), and part of it was I was hoping another nation might decide to take advantage of Americas other fronts... but yeah, mostly just pissed off.

Great to hear from you.

I certainly know how frustrating it can be when plans go awry and things start looking bad. But that is what is great about diplogames, most wars (nearly all) don't end in elimination. There is always time to put on the brakes, and strike a deal to save your skin. It sometimes requires some pride swallowing, but it is nearly always in your longterm best interests. Those who are shrewd negotiators can achieve far more for their civs through diplomacy than through battle.

Hopefully I'll find some time to post a bit in the story thread, and make a peace offer.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Diplo Russia


I have spearmen and axemen.

The majority of you have Knights, Musketmen, and Catapults (I don't even have construction yet, this is the point I'm trying to get across I might have picked it up last session and don't remember though).

Not going to happen.

America is/was fighting a technologically superior foe. But we out maneuvered them, out produced them, and out diploed them. It can be done.

Wait for the big powers to fight. Then pick a side. Make a surprise attack at a softly defended underbelly of a big power while their attention is turned elsewhere. Leverage your battle successes into tech during peace negotiations.

Success in diplogames depends on being able to leverage limited resources. What are your strengths, what are your weaknesses? What is your geo-political position? What is the state of world politics? Where can you insert yourself into the equation for maximum effect?

Or, alternately, bypass such conventional notions about diplogames, civ, and winning and try to win the game through other means. Being big and powerful doesn't help people write excellent stories or craft a cunning web of diplomacy around them. Impress everyone and win subjective votes. Even small powers can do this. Participation in the story thread and diplomacy isn't just eye candy, it can WIN you the game. Yes, even small powers.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Diplo Russia


I have spearmen and axemen.

The majority of you have Knights, Musketmen, and Catapults (I don't even have construction yet, this is the point I'm trying to get across I might have picked it up last session and don't remember though).

Not going to happen.

The rules say nothing of great people, gold, or consentual tech stealing. You could even probably make a deal to echange workers, workboats, spies, missionaries and settlers for more advanced military units. Or even make a deal in which you give them your military unit and gold and they upgrade it for you.

[OzzyKP]

I would assume that consensual tech stealing is against the rule.

The other ideas are good though.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I would assume that consensual tech stealing is against the rule.

The other ideas are good though.

I disagree, the player who intends to steal tech needs to spend EP and pay the price the foreign country demands. He also risks being deceived, since the power with whom he trades can cry foul and use it as a pretext for war or to tarnish his reputation.

Further more if the power which is “giving” the tech makes this easy by not spending EP on the power trying to get tech, they leave themselves exposed for a significant amount of time.

And lastly it would be impossible to enforce a ban on it without banning tech stealing, since people could always make clandestine deals amongst themselves.

[Robert]

Nations that are behind should suck up to a bigger nation for protection. Big nations always love satelite nations. That's usefull in diplomacy, and oftenly as a buffer.

Not all nations can be equal.
Smaller nations that are protected by a big nation can oftenly plot secretly while nobody is watching them.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Nations that are behind should suck up to a bigger nation for protection. Big nations always love satelite nations. That's usefull in diplomacy, and oftenly as a buffer.

Not all nations can be equal.
Smaller nations that are protected by a big nation can oftenly plot secretly while nobody is watching them.

Very true.

[Diplo Russia]

I think you're all missing my point, but it will become evident as time goes on even more clearly than it is to other people already.

So, oh well, enjoy your time, I guess. I'm going to enjoy mine to the utmost even though the divide is just going to get worse, and there's really not a whole lot I can do about it. Not to say I'm not trying or going to try, but let's be entirely honest, when people only have 2 trades to go and they want to hold onto them for something important, they're not going to give them to something who has almost nothing to offer.

I don't understand how you can't see that when it's already been stated four or five times by people in this very thread that they're not going to do it because they're low on tech trades, but hey. You're way ahead. Why would you? :|

Me.

[Diplo Carpathia]

Regarding techs...

I made one trade last session (something for feudalism). This leaves me with 4 tech trades.

Also, Russia, contact me next session. I will tech trade with you, even if it is a lopsided deal for me. I would encourage others to do the same, expecially those with many trades left, or those with a technological lead.

Also, regarding the 10 trade issue. For the record, it was my idea, and in retrospect I see some problems with it. Orginally I thought it would have been better to limit tech trades per civilization (you can only trade with each civ X number of times).

10 trades was simpler i guess, and that is what we went with. Flawed, yes. However, it is interesting to note that there have been no long term alliances formed to date. I guess this method achived it's purpose, at the cost of other things.