Attention All Diplogamers!

[OzzyKP]

Ok, since we HAVE to get our tech issues figured out before 30 minutes AFTER the session is scheduled to start, I'm going to request everyone confirm here explicitly that they have updated to the latest patch.

Please say so here when you do.

I also encourage those of us who can, to come 30 minutes before the session is supposed to start on Friday to start ironing out tech issues then.

[deity]

You mean the 1.60 Master Candidate 3 patch?

Installing it now.

[The Capo]

The first thing I'd like to do here is apologize to Ozzy because I may have been a little belligerent with him on the phone, but that doesn't mean I am admitting I was wrong or that I don't still feel the same way I did last night.

The problem that I had was that I couldn't connect to the game and it kept locking up when I did, and rather than restart and try it again you guys kept playing, which really pissed me off. I had to leave my friends in DC, get on the Metro, and get back to where I live in time for the game. I was around at LEAST fifteen to twenty minutes before the game. I don't know if we needed a different patch last night or what, but nobody told me if we did. So I tried at least four times to connect properly before we started talking to eachother, then it didn't seem at all like anybody gave a sh*t whether or not I got into the game. Now I am all about playing the game, but what I don't appreciate is the fact that I went through a lot of crap in EOM when we couldn't get it to work and was always there, this time around I missed the first session because of an emergency situation, then the second one because of my birthday, and even then nobody seemed to think twice about the fact that I couldn't get into the game properly.

I don't think anyone can tell me there was a situation where a person couldn't connect and I ignored it or decided it wasn't important enough to get them in the game. In fact I recall at least a couple of situations where a few players, including Ozzy, couldn't connect and we cancelled sessions or waited two hours to get them in the game.

Yes, I was a little bit out of line, and it may have seemed worse because I was talking on a speaker phone and I had to raise my voice, but the fact of the matter is I would never do this to any of you, nor would I agree with another person who wanted to continue without trying to remedy the situation when the leader of a country is there, and ready to play. Its a terrible precident we set when we do something like that. It was disheartening and in my mind very disrespectful.

I don't think I deserve special treatment, but when EOM and MEO failed out I was the one who said we shouldn't give up, and now we have this game. Even in the face of multiple players, including one in this game, quitting outright and saying they don't want to play in diplogames anymore. So I will apologize for the way I spoke to Ozzy, but I feel like you guys owe me an apology. Nobody cared, and I talked to a few of you and it was the same, nobody gave a sh*t.

I don't care what happened to my country under the AI, its not that important, but I really don't appreciate the fact that this issue was glossed over.

Peace.

[deity]

Originally posted by The Capo
The first thing I'd like to do here is apologize to Ozzy because I may have been a little belligerent with him on the phone, but that doesn't mean I am admitting I was wrong or that I don't still feel the same way I did last night.

The problem that I had was that I couldn't connect to the game and it kept locking up when I did, and rather than restart and try it again you guys kept playing, which really pissed me off. I had to leave my friends in DC, get on the Metro, and get back to where I live in time for the game. I was around at LEAST fifteen to twenty minutes before the game. I don't know if we needed a different patch last night or what, but nobody told me if we did. So I tried at least four times to connect properly before we started talking to eachother, then it didn't seem at all like anybody gave a sh*t whether or not I got into the game. Now I am all about playing the game, but what I don't appreciate is the fact that I went through a lot of crap in EOM when we couldn't get it to work and was always there, this time around I missed the first session because of an emergency situation, then the second one because of my birthday, and even then nobody seemed to think twice about the fact that I couldn't get into the game properly.

I don't think anyone can tell me there was a situation where a person couldn't connect and I ignored it or decided it wasn't important enough to get them in the game. In fact I recall at least a couple of situations where a few players, including Ozzy, couldn't connect and we cancelled sessions or waited two hours to get them in the game.

Yes, I was a little bit out of line, and it may have seemed worse because I was talking on a speaker phone and I had to raise my voice, but the fact of the matter is I would never do this to any of you, nor would I agree with another person who wanted to continue without trying to remedy the situation when the leader of a country is there, and ready to play. Its a terrible precident we set when we do something like that. It was disheartening and in my mind very disrespectful.

I don't think I deserve special treatment, but when EOM and MEO failed out I was the one who said we shouldn't give up, and now we have this game. Even in the face of multiple players, including one in this game, quitting outright and saying they don't want to play in diplogames anymore. So I will apologize for the way I spoke to Ozzy, but I feel like you guys owe me an apology. Nobody cared, and I talked to a few of you and it was the same, nobody gave a sh*t.

I don't care what happened to my country under the AI, its not that important, but I really don't appreciate the fact that this issue was glossed over.

Peace.

You got to be kidding me Capo!! LOL!

* Firstly tyou were incapable of explaining your problems clearly enough for us to help out - we still don't know! Was I correct in my advise that maybe you had a CD in your drive ON TOP of another one??

* Secondly, we didn't play on because ozzy refused to play on without you. He, virtually alone, held up the game whilst trying to deal with you and help you get up and running. It must have been evident that when you finally did connect that you hadn't missed a turn.

* Thirdly, I would never hold up a group of players for more than 30 mins if I had technical issues. (In fact, as ozzy will testify, when I couldn't connect to the second session I told them to play on without me. Luckily we rewsolved that problem in the nick of time and I did play). I think we waited for up to 2 hours while ozzy and others trried to help you with your difficulties. How about a proper explanation of this please.

* Fourthly, I think you owe the group an apology.

War

[The Capo]

Well nobody told me any of this stuff.

I IMed you, I IMed Kuno and I IMed and spoke with Ozzy over the phone. At no point in any of those IMs or phone conversations did anybody tell me you guys were waiting, I was just told to join and I joined and people were playing, so I assumed you were playing without me.

I may have been mistaken, but the point is the same. We didn't try and restart the game, which we should have done, for whatever reason (perhaps a bad peer) the game locked each time I entered it, so there was no way for me to tell what was going on in the game. My roomate checked everything and he said it was all fine, and while I was drunk he was not (because he had to work), and he knows more about computers than anybody I know, and I know people who work at a computer company.

The only thing that is irritating me here is that nobody was giving me feedback, and when I connected to the game twice and saw that it was already being played I assumed you guys just decided that I was too drunk to figure it out and played without me, so I am mistaken, and I already apologized for being out of line on the phone. Nothing else I did was incorrect though, and if you are going to sit here and tell me any of you said to me in an IM anything remotely close to "We are waiting for you don't worry" you are lying.

I only thought you guys were going to play without me because Ozzy said on the phone something to the effect of "We can't hold up the game because of you." I simply added that statement to the fact that nobody was responding to my IMs, and the fact that the game was already in progress when I joined it, since it locked up I couldn't tell what was going on. So I am wrong, I'm sorry, but the point is you have to tell me what's going on otherwise I am going to assume the worst.

I don't see what would have been so f*cking bad if everyone quit out of the game and we rehosted it!?!?

Its not like we hadn't done it ever before, and the fact that nobody wanted to do that lead me to believe you were just going to play without me anyway.

So sorry I misconstrued the situation, but still, Ozzy wasn't helpful on the phone and only managed to piss me off even more, to the point that I had to get my computer nerd room-mate to help me out. Nobody responded to my IMs, so I assumed you guys just figured I wasn't necessary to the game.

I already apologized for what I said to Ozzy, I don't feel the need to apologize for NOT BEING INFORMED.

[deity]

The thing is Capo, you didn't INFORM us of anything and you still haven't!

Why couldn't you get Civ4 to load? Answer this first.

When you got in the game wasn't it obvious that you hadn't missed a turn? Answer this next.

When you were in the game but dropping out we were on the verge of rehosting when I (the host) actually crashed. We rehosted and you were no where to be seen. Where did you go? Answer this last.

War and peace

[deity]

Incidentally, the fact that you were well drunk meant that after a few of waiting to get you in the game (all thanks to ozzy) none of us felt inclined to deal with you about your connection issues. A sober in game dialog might have helped.

[OzzyKP]

I'm learning that being the guy in the middle only gets people on both sides mad at me, but I'm stubborn so I'll give it another go.


My agreements with Capo:

1. Most of us didn't bat an eyelash initially when Capo was having trouble and decided to start the game up without him. Myself included. This was wrong, and I apologize.

2. We have waited many hours and put up with much technical difficulty from many of us, but did not give Capo the same respect we all received for ourselves. This is wrong, especially when Capo is one of the most integral players in this genre for the last 5 years.

3. The lack of concern for Capo's difficulties were quite selfish.

My agreements with Deity, et al:

1. Whereas with other technical difficulties, those having problems were calm, patient, and helpful trying to work them out. Capo was belligerant and non-communicative. This not only hinders our ability to help, but hinders our inclination.

2. Most of us are fatigued by many weeks of problems, and have been losing patience with problems bit by bit. So most are less inclined to make the same allowances on week 4 as they would have for week 1.

3. (more an explanation than an agreement necessarily, though I initially felt this way too) Due to the lack of information presented by Capo about the nature of his problem, it seemed to be a problem with merely opperating the program itself, which seemed like a simple matter no sober person would have issues with. Considering Capo wasn't sober, many in the group had much less sympathy for his situation.

4. Capo's seeming preference for the seven of us who could connect to just cancel the entire session rather than play without him was selfish. At some point, as Deity noted, you just have to step aside and let the others get on with their evening.


Personal notes about my involvement:

1. Capo, I did tell you that we were all waiting for you, and that I was holding them up. I told you this several times on the phone. You weren't doing the best job of listening.

2. I accept your apology, and I offer my apology in turn for initially agreeing to start the game without you. (though I realized the mistake quite soon and didn't advance my turn for the next hour or so). I hope we can all move past this and keep this game together and moving forward, because in spite of our frequent technical problems and occasional shouting matches this game is incredibly good and entertaining and I can't wait till next Friday (and the Friday after that... and after that... and...)

[Robert]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I'm learning that being the guy in the middle only gets people on both sides mad at me, but I'm stubborn so I'll give it another go.

Hey, I stood next to you for 1 and a half hour, then I said: enough is enough, now we play!
Nicodamax didn't want to play untill about 1 and a half hour as well.

All the others were waiting with much patience for certainly 45 minutes as well, some even more then an hour.

We didn't play one turn, untill The Capo entered!

[The Capo]

Alright, alright...

I am going to go over my position point by point, and as Kuno said to me earlier today (BTW, thanks for IGNORING me today Deity, jackass) "It was a matter of miscommunication."

1) Ozzy made the point that I was belligerent and non-communicative, there are two glaring reasons for this, the first was that I was talking to Ozzy on speakerphone, and the second is very simple; everyone was trying to get the session going and were thus all short with me, the only person who wasn't was Kuno. (Also I was drunk, and thus more passionate about my position, regardless, due to that everyone dismissed what I was trying to say as "drunk talk" and decided to forget me.)

1.1) Might I add, I put up a post telling you I would be drunk, so anyone who says this is a surprise or even disrespectful can suck it.

2) Ozzy made another point that patience was wearing thin in Week 4 compared to Week 1 where people were more willing to allow bygones to be bygones just to get the game started. Here is my main issue; why? If anyone here has patience its me; I went through two failed games, and started this thread up and in many ways STOPPED the failure of Diplogames in Civ IV, I don't mean to seem arrogant, but seriuosly, patience IS a virtue, and it was one lost with this group.

3) Another person said I didn't communicate my problems, and again after looking at OUR CHATLOGS that is entirely incorrect, I told you exactly what my problems were and Ozzy's response was to say "I don't know what to tell you." which is acceptable considering I didn't either, and Deity's was simply the word "bye." Believe me, if I were to say things like (a) brushing you off because your computer savvy wasn't too great, or (b) being a total ******* for no reason COUGHdeityCOUGH, I would be ostricized from the community... oh wait... I am...

As for Deity...

1) I knew the game was crashing and I didn't know why, my bad! I didn't realize I was required to understand the programming of the game. My computer was screwy and that's it, my roomate and my friend checked into it (both were sober as a nun by the way) and they couldn't figure it out either, the only thing I can think of is that we had different players since last time using a BETA patch. For anyone to EXPECT the game to work like a charm, and then judge me because of this is ludicrous! (And again, the game loaded, but crashed).

2) I believe I already explained my reasons for thinking you were playing without me; when I entered the game it had a couple of units move and then locked up, so I assumed you were playing without me and my connection was ****ed up, which is also why I thought you all were ignoring me (combined with the fact that YOU quickly brushed me off and Ozzy said "I don't know what to tell you, we can't hold the game up for you" I don't think its that insane to think I would assume you guys were going to play without me anyway... do you?)

3) Again, I left because Ozzy was irritating me (which probably had more to do with the booze) and you told me "bye." which probably had more to do with my GENERAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND THE GOD DAMNED MEANING OF THE WORD "BYE." *******.

So those are my responses. And yes, I will play the game, I hope you don't hate me, and I am sorry I ruined the session, but I don't think this can be lumped solely on me.

Peace.

[deity]

Yes Capo - it's all your fault

I said "Bye" just a few hours ago because I had to go! Sorry about that. (This was not a conversation on game night)

Anyway, or should I say, "Well" I think we better let it all go and get together early next session to make sure everyone's on board technically.

We sure need you in the game Capo. It's a fantastic group and despite all our hassles we've progresed very well and I feel confident that the game will go all the way.

If I see you around during the week Capo we can try a few connects with the save to see how your end is.

Well, peace it is

[Robert]

The Capo: we waited for 1,5 hours. don't say we didn't have any patience. We had a lot of patience. It was 01:30 AM when we started te play. (in my time)

And about taking you serious, I tried to send you a program that might fix your problem, all I got were reponses like: "WHAT IDIOT IS SENDING ME FILES CAN HE GET THE @#%@#% OUT OF HERE HE'S !#%!##@% MY CONNECTION THE !@#%@#% @#%#@%#@%"

Even after that I kept having patience with you.
You know what bothers me most, not that you were drunk (eventhough I think getting drunk is really really really stupid, but ok, some people have a different opinion on that) and not even that you were a @ss while you were drunk. It bothers me that even now you still do not apologize and try to keep your street clean.

Now you are sober you should know better.
You've yelled at me, you've yelled at Ozzy, you've yelled at everyone in the chatroom.

I give you one advice: never get drunk again, it's not good for you and it's not good for your friendships. Grow up, and know when to stop drinking.

We waited 1,5 hours for you, and you kept yelling at everyone. thank bro! That's the spirit we're looking for.

[NicodaMax]

Well, since I've been mentioned, let me just explain my point of view, before we all let go of this and look forward to the next session

I'm a very easy going but dispassionate person (except when it comes to civ reality, like loosing a city to barbs or being backstabbed ). But seriously, I don’t say much, I’d rather listen (read) and when I do say something it probably won’t be serious
The fact is, I'm for waiting when somebody has issues with their rig/game/connection, but since I'm a "new guy" I don't think I have the authority to actively back up ozzy in holding back the other people who just want to keep playing, so I just sat there waiting. I'm not getting into a yelling match over AIM or YIM or whatever to discuss technical problems with some drunk person more than 10 thousand miles away. It'd just make the situation worse. Maybe I should've been a little more generous and back up ozzy, that's my fault, and I apologize.
I have no issues with the drunk thing, I really don’t, but: hardware and booze just don't mix, I know that from experience and if I had to vote, I'd rather postpone the session rather than play drunk or with drunk people. It's not fair to you and the other players, and I'm sure it affects the outcome of the game.
Last but not least, I have no problems with someone who just doesn't want to wait and have his or her precious time wasted. That is their right. But lets be civilized about it and not get into the I'm just gonna quit thing. That's why people vote. Problem is, someone at Firaxis doesn't remember his government and economics classes too well and made the voting screen a unanimous process
We should seriously vote (if this comes up again) and do what the majority feels (that's the fair thing to do) so that no one person has control over the whole group. Again, Ozzy, I think what you did was ok though. If a serious vote comes up I'd be for waiting a reasonable amount of time (1-2 hours) or even postponing the session. But if the majority wants to play on, regardless of my vote, I'd have no problems playing either, and I hope whoever we don’t wait for doesn't hold a grudge. Remember; be happy, peaceful and generous.
Just my $0.02

[NicodaMax]

I posted this a while back on the Ladder's forum, and it may do some good here. Set of rules, sort of speak:

1. Take into account that great games and great achievements involve great risk.
2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.
3. Follow the three R's
Respect for self,
Respect for other's and
Responsability for all your actions.
4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderfull stroke of luck.
5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great relationship.
7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take inmediate steps to correct it.
8. Spend some time playing CIV every day.
9. Open arms to change, but don't let go of your values.
10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.
11. Play a good honorable game. When you look back on it you'll enjoy it a second time.
12. A loving atmosphere in the game is the foundation for your CIV gaming experience.
13. In disagreemente with fellow players, deal only with the current situation. Don't bring up the past.
14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to acheive immortality.
15. Be gentle with the earth.
16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.
17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other.
18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.
19. Approach CIV playing with reckless abandon.
Another $0.02

[The Capo]

Alright, sorry this happened, ultimately it was because of my actions so let's just let the issue die and play on.

Sorry.

Peace.