Tech trading is / is not a bore (delete as appropriate)

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by mdrago
Spike, i dont know about this 'comparion games' you mention above... if you can point a link so i can take a look, i will apreciatte it.

I started a new game yesterday, with the same seeting i mentioned before and i dont need to tell you the result... be the time i train me first musketman i was disembarked be a ton of 'modern armor'...

Perphas this 'comparison games' you mention are on a 16x16 map size, against 2 rivals... i dont know, but i will love if someone can post a link to this games so i can take a look... It dosent fit in my head that something that im trying to acomplish for 6 months is 'easy' to do for other people.... again, i'm been playing Civ since version 2 so i will consider myself a relative good player.

And my offer is serious, to be honest with you, spending 500 dollars to 'see' how to beat the game will pay for itself with the time i will spend with my family and the hours of 'professional servicves' that rigth now i dont work because i'm playing the game!

A comparison game is one in which a number of players use the same starting position and after a certain number of moves post their position (for comparison). There is usualy a log of what happened and a discussion of strategy. The game then continues using any of the posted saves - usualy your own or the best posted save. Repeat until the game ends.

I suggest you post a starting position and we will then play through to AD1 for our first comparison point.

RJM

PS Here is a link to the comparison game mentioned by Dr Spike. The save was posted by Solo and was version 1.61 (ie not Warlords). Some of the strategies have been affected by the changes in Warlords 2.08.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149784&perpage=30&pagenumber=5

[couerdelion]

mdrago,

Might I suggest a few alternatives,

1) Read Vel’s Strategy Guide – it’s pre-Warlord but the principles are about the same
2) Follow one of the “Workshop threads” where a game is played through with commentary and screens. It is the commentary that is most important
3) Perhaps post something yourself explaining what you are doing and others can then comment on improvements.

There are many ways a game can “go wrong” in Civ 4. Just a few examples are

1) Inadequate defenses
2) Poor research rate
3) Too rapid expansion
4) Careless diplomacy

And I’m sure that there are many others that people will mention.

The best way to avoid these is to have a good understanding of the game, recognise the key strategic objectives at different stages in the game, notice when they change, possess a decent bag of tactics (whip-rushing, cottage spam, GP farming etc) and TIME!!.

[mdrago]

Thanks for the link, i will take a look!

couerdelion, i already read Vel's SG. I think that what goes wrong is simply that there is no way to beat this kind of scenario.

Anyway, here's a post with a map, I play with Romans (because of the culture bonus) and the start position looks promising, you have a river, wheat & Dye for later.

Remeber that ou are playing against 17 rivals!!! The empire builder approach will get you crushed (i try it a 1000 times), so you better start moving...

Thanks!

[couerdelion]

So IIRC you’ve got Creative/Organised with starting techs of Fishing and Mining. You have an early classical UU and late classical UB and the former is an early game winner while the later is nice

Start map gives dyes and wheat with a river. Not the greatest but something you can work with.

Now looking at the traits I think Creative/Organised is ideal for early land grabbing and that will help to manage the early happiness deficit and to grab the strategic resources which will win the first stage of the game. In this case, I would probably start Worker/Agriculture to get the wheat improved and then grab BronzeWorking to find copper/enable whip.

I think an early rush might be desirable but if there’s no way of doing this a peaceful land grab will take some of the scarce land available to give you some chance of grabbing iron. Either way, your choicest neighbour is your target for destruction before 1 AD (ideally with axes/chariots but, if not, with Praets).

I can guess that diplomacy is a messy thing with 17 civs.

So where is the major problem you are finding? (And I will use the broad headings that Vel has defined)
1) The Window
2) Local land-grab
3) Regional supremacy
4) Pan-Regional supremacy
5) Global supremacy

[mdrago]

Dear couerdelion; you have nice ideas but i will suggest you give it a serious try to the map... i already played it 3 times... let me explain:
1st shot) A complete disaster, try to make a BL to get Pyramids but it went all wrong, plus, al my Warrios were eated by bears
2nd shot) My settler was eated by a phanter. End of the story
3rd shot) I manage until 1800AD, when 3 Archers and 1 warrior (Barbarians) take my capitol... end of the story again.

I find really funny the "we will compare by 1AD"... but you need to get there first.

I think that the only possible way to get to 1AD is playing completely consevative, and that kinf of play will get you to 1AD, but you will be dead by 500BC

I was reading the post rjmatsleepers suggested, and i find sentences like:
"1200 Alphabet, Meditation & Alphabet to Catherine for Agriculture, The Wheel, Hunting & Mining"
Looks like he is playing in Monarch... that kinf of deal dosent exists in Emeperor... in fact, if you try to exchange 3 of these techs for 1, you will a "No" for answer.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by mdrago
I think that what goes wrong is simply that there is no way to beat this kind of scenario.

Man you are stubborn. If I get chance later I'll look at the save.

[Dominae]

Major problems with this scenario are:

1. Huge map size.
2. Marathon game speed.
3. Encroaching Jungle.

Of course I'm being facetious about the first two, but they do make it a chore to play.

I think this is definitely beatable, it might just take me a while to get anywhere conclusive.

[DrSpike]

Yeah. I've downloaded it but am having trouble generating the enthusiasm to play the 14,000 turns before AD.

[mdrago]

Spike, please don't just "look" at the save, try to get to 1AD in some decent shape... i mean, for example:
- 8 cities
- at least at 70% in scientific rate
- at least +1 in income

Less than that and you know how your game will end.

Also, please don't give me the "hot tips list", i already know them. I need someone here who can "implement" those tips while been:
- constantly harased by barbs
- drained economically be the "gap multipliers" of Emperor difficulty
- Rejected at every kind of trade you try to make with the AI

I wait for your answer, and wish you luck.
Regards.-

[mdrago]

Spike, it's not that bad, you'll get to 1AD in less that 2hs 30min.

[DrSpike]

Well I tried but I can't load your save.

Fell at the first hurdle.

[couerdelion]

So why would barbarians be such a major problem in this game?

And what would be the over-riding need to have 8 cities by 1 AD. It sounds like quite a lot to me. In addition, putting a 70% science rate requirement is also an arbitrary restriction that, in reality, may not be that necessary when you can use specialists to supply the necessary techs. Circumstances, and a reasonable level of chance, will dictate what path any one game takes and it is almost impossible to predict where you should be at this stage.

What is even more confusing to me is that the three games you talk about all seem to be running into problems with barbarians while your gripe here is that the AI will never trade with the human on a “fair” basic. I usually find that barbarian problems are effectively over by the time I have Alphabet.

p.s. Allowing animals to kill a settler is a basic mistake. Someone playing at emperor level must clearly be punching above their weight if they let this happen

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Well I tried but I can't load your save.

Fell at the first hurdle.

You need to capitalise three of the letters - CivWarlordsSave

It should load then.

RJM

[rjmatsleepers]

I've downloaded the save, but ...

I'm not sure whether my lappy is powerful enough to cope with this map size;

I'm not sure I have the patience to play at marathon speed;

I'm not sure I can maintain interest in a game where spaceship victory has beeen turned off (AFAICS).

BTW, mdrago, at least one of the spaceship comparison games was at Emperor. However, I posted the link to give you an example of a comparison game, not particularly as an example from which you could learn game play.

RJM

[mdrago]

couerdelion, you are rigth about the settler thing... but, in this kind of scenario, if you play by the rules you die by the odds! You need to take chances, and i send a settler alone coz i don't have the time to create a warrior.
The goals i mentioned are based in a position one will feel confortable playing by 1AD... i dont think you are in a good position if you have 4 cities by 1AD because you only way to expand in that moment will by war and that is something you want to avoid at all cost in this kind of map (well, al least i try to avoid war), and let me explain why:
- You are tech inferior at that point
- Having 4 cities, its not for sure you will have iron at hand
- The AI is with 8 or more cities at that point
- You can't economically afford an army of the size needed
- The happiness issue

Perphaps you are rigth and i'm "punching above", but the fact is:
- I CAN finish emperor level with NO tech trading
So the logical step forward seems to be with tech trading ON, rigth? Also, this topic was about the "fair / unfair" trading with the AI, that this scenario proves.

And i will say it again, i CAN'T finish this kind of scenario, that's why i post the save... And i will love to see someone finishing it

And what's the matter with marathon speed? Can't believe anyone playing Civ is un a hurry.