Tech trading is / is not a bore (delete as appropriate)

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by rah

Have you and Spike played many games with it off or are you just speculating/or applying some type of logic.

I am a completeaholic so play all levels, settings and maps (well not below noble because it's pointless).

One thing I do not do is play with voluntary restrictions, so I cannot comment on your OCC assertions.

[mdrago]

I always play Marathon (Epic before Warlods) / Huge / Continents / 17 rivals / Conquest || Domination.
I've been trying for six months, but i cant beat the AI in emperor or above... no matter what i do, by the time of gunpower I'm behind in tech.

Honestly, I dont think it's a problem with my gameplay... I play Civ2 and Civ3 with relative success. The big difference here in Civ4 it's that you cannot trade techs at all.

Some people in this post says you can always get at leats gold for your new researched tech, and tough, there is a "winning" situation in that... sorry to differ, but that not trading, that DAMAGE CONTROL.

It's a lie that your repupation with another civ will get you a "worthy" tech for free. In emperor or above you rep. means nothing... the AI wont trade if not for 3x the value for the item you are asiking for.

Don't believe me? Start a new game in Emperor, make some contacts and try to exchange "1 gold coin" for "10 gold coins"... simply as it;s sound you will get a "is that your better offer?" from the AIs... IT'S STUPID!!!... again, there is no posible trading in that conditions.

And your rep. will make no difference at all, because the AI is playing in "noble" difficulty level, and you are playing in emepror... the "multipliers" involved create a gap way to big!

I dont turn off "tech tradinf" simply because i consider it cheating (dispite it's a legal game fauture to turn it off)... the difference is HUGE!

I will pay to see someone finishing the game in Emperor with the same settings I play and Tech Trading ON.

[DrSpike]

How much?

[rah]

I've been playing with it off the last few games but I don't think playing with it on the upper levels is quite that harsh. Trades can be made, and some even quite fair (i only said SOME), in fact Ming and I were talking the other day that while they still like to fleece you, that the trading is much better than previous versions in terms of finding some close to equal trades. (i said close to)

And I'm with SPIKE on this one. How much?

[mdrago]

I'll send you a saved game of a newly created game (you told me what civ you want and I create the game).

Then, you send me 50 saved games, one at a time at the "years" i specify...

I'll give 500 bucks by paypal if you beat the game, what do you say?

[rah]

I'll give the trading expert the first shot.
SPIKE defend the honor.

I prefer playing with no tech trading because it's easier.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by mdrago
I'll send you a saved game of a newly created game (you told me what civ you want and I create the game).

Then, you send me 50 saved games, one at a time at the "years" i specify...

I'll give 500 bucks by paypal if you beat the game, what do you say?

You and the good doctor may do what you like for side bets, but how about posting the save in this forum so that the rest of us can play as a comparison game.

RJM

[DrSpike]

I am in a generous mood and feel that would be better. Not sure I could with clean conscience take $500 (assuming it's a serious offer) for doing something that's not very difficult. Plus more players, more to learn.

I'd also point out that whilst 'Poly is pretty weak on high level comparison games (think RJM ran one emperor spaceship game though) the other site that cannot be mentioned has several threads about emperor, immortal and deity comparison games. Most of these have trading on so looking at the threads for free would save you $500.

[absimiliard]

[SIZE=1] . . . . the other site that cannot be mentioned . . . .

Pet OT nag here.

WTF.

We're all playing Civ. We're all fans. I might even say we were all civ fans.

Why must we be so petty about the fact that there are two very good sites about our beloved game?

-abs

[DrSpike]

But there's only one site! And one that cannot be mentioned.

[rjmatsleepers]

I've just started my first game without tech trading - playing Cyus at Noble with Warlord 2.08 AI.

My first (subjective) impression is that during the first 4,000 years I am slightly behind where I would expect to be, but the AI civs are even further behind. In other words, the way I play, at the level I play, the AI seems to get more out of tech trading than I do. Of course it's a tiny sample and totally subjective!

RJM

[Blake]

I'll repeat what I said earlier.

The AI does get a lot of benefit out of tech trading - however this is more because it completely neglects to research certain techs (if it doesn't randomly choose to research a tech then a few techs later it can fall off the radar if not part of a pre-req chain). This leaves the AI without critical economic techs - the AI is hobbled without tech trading because it relies on it to round out it's tech tree. It doesn't actually trade much or much expensive stuff - but a trade of Pottery for Archery can be very vital for it's economic survival...

So the AI does benefit more from tech trading, but that's not because it's a tech trading whore but because it's hobbled without the ability to fill in the gaps in it's tech tree.

Note: Smarter humans usually use Tech Trading to gain an advantage rather than filling in the gaps. Less smarter humans probably fill in the gaps but that's just asking for WFYABTA...

[DrSpike]

Sounds reasonable. And the fact that smarter players are better at trading than the AI can easily outweigh the 'key tech' phenomenon, particularly on higher levels.

[rjmatsleepers]

What a different game it is without tech trading! One example - music. This is usualy very low in my research priority. I expect to pick it up as a make weight in some tech trade. Suddenly I have to research it if I want a cathedral or two.

RJM

[mdrago]

Spike, i dont know about this 'comparion games' you mention above... if you can point a link so i can take a look, i will apreciatte it.

I started a new game yesterday, with the same seeting i mentioned before and i dont need to tell you the result... be the time i train me first musketman i was disembarked be a ton of 'modern armor'...

Perphas this 'comparison games' you mention are on a 16x16 map size, against 2 rivals... i dont know, but i will love if someone can post a link to this games so i can take a look... It dosent fit in my head that something that im trying to acomplish for 6 months is 'easy' to do for other people.... again, i'm been playing Civ since version 2 so i will consider myself a relative good player.

And my offer is serious, to be honest with you, spending 500 dollars to 'see' how to beat the game will pay for itself with the time i will spend with my family and the hours of 'professional servicves' that rigth now i dont work because i'm playing the game!