Tech trading is / is not a bore (delete as appropriate)

[rah]

I've spread religion and made them all my friends and made them each other's enemy but in the end it doesn't seem to matter. You look at the screen and they're +16 to you and annoyed at every one else. Yet they'll trade a strategic tech with someone they don't like but not you. They won't go to war against their friends (which they're annoyed at), but they'll sneak attack you at the drop of a hat. It just doesn't make sense most of the time. I realize that there are psychos out there. (I do like random personalities), but it's really irritating that you spend centuries getting to that +15-+20 and you're the one they attack.
Granted there are games where it does work. On rare occasions I've been able to tame Tok. But it's not consistent enough so after a point, you just say, I'm not playing your reindeer games anymore.
So I say screw it. You'll give gunpowder to someone you've been at war with but not your game long buddy.
I turn it off at the higher levels and I actually winning games now. So it actually must help some of us.
(usually the war mongers. )

[DrSpike]

I always thought the sneak attack at +15-20 couldn't occur - certainly I've never seen it in a lot of games.

Does someone have a save please to confirm the recollections posted here?

'Pleased' seems fine for most leaders, as long as you aren't too weak militarily (when very little can save you). And we all know who the exceptions are so you shouldn't get caught twice.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I always thought the sneak attack at +15-20 couldn't occur - certainly I've never seen it in a lot of games.

Does someone have a save please to confirm the recollections posted here?

'Pleased' seems fine for most leaders, as long as you aren't too weak militarily (when very little can save you). And we all know who the exceptions are so you shouldn't get caught twice.

who are the exceptions? Monty maybe?

[rah]

It was Catherine for me the last game. But it was OCC so I probably appeared to be weak. (even though I was only a few hundred points behind her) But considering I had just loaded the boats to send her way, I landed on her island and was attacking her cities before she got to mine. SO whe must have been a psychic. Within 5 turns she was the weaker of the two.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Sorry if this has already been said... but... Eh... WHAT?

Tech trading is what gives the AI the advantage over the human player, period.

The AI will trade techs and resources, and everything at rates that you would never accept. (Techs for 60 gold that you won't trade for 300, etc...)

Thats why it is so important to be in control of the trading, up until the Industrial age (at which point you lose control).

Before that, you can make sure that you are the first to get alphabet, and you can make sure that you get currency, and then you can trade all your techs for not only the techs that you don't have, but also for ALL THEIR GOLD.

There was a point when I wouldn't trade anybody anything. I ended up falling behind on the tech tree during and after the Industrial Revolution. Why? Because as soon as the AI gets Alphabet they start trading techs.

So either YOU can go trade those techs to them first and get the gold, or whatever... or you can do nothing and the AI will reap the rewards.

The entire point of this game is to get to the starting position BEFORE everybody else. You can then SELL that starting position backwards and use the money to slingshot yourself further into the future.

Now, if you're running a "no tech trading" game.. Well then... none of this really matters at all.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
Sorry if this has already been said... but... Eh... WHAT?

Tech trading is what gives the AI the advantage over the human player, period.

It certainly has been said, by several posters in fact. Nevertheless, it being said one more time (or even several more) wont make it an accurate assessment.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by DrSpike


That's pretty much it - on the higher levels trading is a necessary device to compete (because like other things humans are better at it) and once the game advances to the later stages you just shouldn't be getting out-teched anyway.

Wow... you're right.

Despite all your previous messages in this thread that talk about how important tech trading actually is, its.. uhhh...

What did you call it?

"An inaccurate assessment"?

You are so gifted.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat

You are so gifted.

Thanks.

[couerdelion]

It seems strange to me that people do not see the benefits of tech trading for the human player and some of the stories here don’t seem to bear any resemblance to what I have seen in my games.

Firstly, I can see two reasons (apart from dislike) that the AI will not trade this

1) We don’t want to do this just yet. Here the AI tends to have a monopoly on the tech so will not trade it at all and you cannot demand it either. The foolish human player then decides to research it too and finds that, once they have it, the AI sees their lost monopoly and trades it freely. One of the best ways for the human player to help the AI is to do something like this when they know of other techs that the AI might be able to get for this monopoly tech. Far better to wait for another AI to research this and they try to get the trade

2) We have our reasons. These are the strategic ones but my guess here is that the reason for not trading is that the AI is building one of the wonders that the tech unlocks. You choice here is to wait for someone else to get the tech or, if you need it quickly, research it yourself.

Basically, the human player is able to research in such a way as to anticipate and plan trades so that, for each tech you research you get a bonus tech (or maybe on average only 50% of a tech). The AI cannot plan this way so is unable to manufacture these sorts of trading opportunities and must take whatever luck throws it.

There are also ways in which the human can scupper trading opportunities by practically giving away techs – and this is also a good way of supporting diplomatic moves. Let’s assume there are 4 AI’s and they get on passably with each others. There are several techs around and the following techs A-D are researched

Human : Techs A-D
AI 1: Techs A-C
AI 2: Techs A-B
AI 3: Tech A
AI 4: Tech D

So none of the techs are now monopolies and AI 4 can make the following trades

With AI 3: D for A
With AI 2: D for B
With AI 1: D for C

So the combine AI’s have gained six free techs for the cost of researching four. That’s an average bonus to tech research of 150%.

Now this example is perhaps quite extreme and highlights a dilemma for the human player. In this particular case, there is not really a lot that the human player can do because fate as in some way conspired to leave no trading opportunities for them and every chance for the AI to catch up. In fact, this is precisely the time that the human player has to accept the inevitable trading opportunities that the AI has created and make the best deal that they can from this. The options here are

1) Sell Tech D to AIs 1-3
2) Sell Tech D to AIs 1,2 and Tech A to AI 4
3) Sell Tech D to AI 1, and Techs A and B to AI 4
4) Sell Techs A-C to AI 4

And here is the balancing act. There will be diplomatic reasons why one or other of these options will be preferable and there will be those where financial gains will be higher. Either way, at least one other AI will have to catch up with the human but at least you have gained something in return and it is better than having two AI’s with the same tech level. At least the AI’s between them have only gained three techs from trading in contrast to the six they would gain if they were left to trade among themselves.

[DrSpike]

Also note that when 1 and 2 apply to the human they apply to other AI civs too, so the human isn't being treated differently.

The only factor that often applies solely to the human is the "we fear you are becoming too advanced", but even if (and it is an if because there are resources, some of which coeurdelion has just posted) this causes the AI to catch up then you can still never be overtaken if you have the strongest research. And you always should have the strongest research by the endgame.

The bottom line is tech trading favours the human if you are a skilled player. The higher you go in difficulty the more true it is.

[eris]

The question asked is not whether it is profitable to do tech trading, but whether it was "boring". It takes some skill and luck to not get ripped off in the process, but I find the overall tech trading process to be very interesting and challenging. The overall process could be improved and given more opportunities or options, and it is true that the AI can use the process against you rather badly, but in answer to the original question....

No, tech trading is NOT boring.

It is frustrating, challenging, and occasionally a great opportunity to mess with the AI players. And so far, bad as I may be at it, I still think it is part of the fun of the game.

[DaveV]

To add to what eris said, I have to say this is one of the areas where Civ4 is light years ahead of Civ3. Instead of having to click all the AIs to see what tech trades are available (a horrible interface that was one of the things that really annoyed me in Civ3), there is now one screen where tech trades can be analyzed (although you might have to do some vertical scrolling).

[couerdelion]

Where is that screen. I only know of the diplomatic (F4?)screen and that does not tell me what techs that the AI needs - only what it has.

[DrSpike]

Yeah you can't see that, only all techs you have that someone needs.

[DaveV]

On the F4 technology screen, you can click on each of the AIs, and it will show which of your techs he/she lacks. Still a lot of clicking to check all AIs, but waaay better than in Civ3.