Tech trading is / is not a bore (delete as appropriate)

[DrSpike]

Yes, and it would be tricky to get the interface so you could see everything on one screen. Maybe for Civ5.

[rah]

Originally posted by DrSpike


The bottom line is tech trading favours the human if you are a skilled player. The higher you go in difficulty the more true it is.

Still your opinion only. The higher the level the more likely some look at war as a solution to the difficulty. If you war a lot, tech trading favours the AI.

[DrSpike]

Well I guess there's always an element of subjectivity in any non trivial question about a game such as Civ4. But's it's more than opinion I'm afraid.

But I know you wont be convinced by my just saying it. What you need to do is just play the same map on immortal with and without tech trading, and see which is easier for you to win, whichever route you like. Then you'll see.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Originally posted by DrSpike
But I know you wont be convinced by my just saying it. What you need to do is just play the same map on immortal with and without tech trading, and see which is easier for you to win, whichever route you like.

Note that "without tech trading" and "with the No Technology Trading option enabled" are different tests. Last I read (which was pre-patch, so take with a wife of salt), No Technology Trading also left the AI in a bad bad way.

[DrSpike]

You are right. Forgive our imprecision but the substantive discussion in this thread has been about enabling the (edit: should say 'no tech trading option') tech trading option.

[Blake]

Originally posted by VoiceOfUnreason


Note that "without tech trading" and "with the No Technology Trading option enabled" are different tests. Last I read (which was pre-patch, so take with a wife of salt), No Technology Trading also left the AI in a bad bad way.

take with a wife of salt? wife of salt?

The AI's trade tech less than a competent human.

With non-Better AI versions of the game the AI makes daft research choices - they could easily make it into the AD's without ever researching Pottery, with tech trading enabled this isn't a huge problem because they'll eventually trade for it, but with NTT whatever they don't research - they don't get to use. The fact that they are missing critical economic techs definitely slows them down, that is probably why it's easier to compete with the AI with NTT - they are lacking techs like Pottery so can't build cottages, or they are missing Ironworking so can't clear jungle to improve Calendar resources (a cheap tech which the AI neglects to research basically falls off their radar when it comes to selecting research).

AI's don't trade tech much. The main trade spam they do is that any AI with a vassal will donate all their tech to the vassal, otherwise they are even more stingy with each other than they are with humans.

[Kuciwalker]

take with a wife of salt? wife of salt?

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Blake

take with a wife of salt? wife of salt?

The AI's trade tech less than a competent human.

With non-Better AI versions of the game the AI makes daft research choices - they could easily make it into the AD's without ever researching Pottery, with tech trading enabled this isn't a huge problem because they'll eventually trade for it, but with NTT whatever they don't research - they don't get to use. The fact that they are missing critical economic techs definitely slows them down, that is probably why it's easier to compete with the AI with NTT - they are lacking techs like Pottery so can't build cottages, or they are missing Ironworking so can't clear jungle to improve Calendar resources (a cheap tech which the AI neglects to research basically falls off their radar when it comes to selecting research).

AI's don't trade tech much. The main trade spam they do is that any AI with a vassal will donate all their tech to the vassal, otherwise they are even more stingy with each other than they are with humans.

Indeed.

And shame on you for mocking the wife of salt!

[rah]

Originally posted by Blake

The fact that they are missing critical economic techs definitely slows them down, that is probably why it's easier to compete with the AI with NTT - they are lacking techs like Pottery so can't build cottages, or they are missing Ironworking so can't clear jungle to improve Calendar resources (a cheap tech which the AI neglects to research basically falls off their radar when it comes to selecting research).

So are you agreeing with my opinion that it's easier when you use the no tech trading option?

[DrSpike]

Well it's the flip side of the same coin. Because humans are better at trading tech trading is a resource that makes it easier to equalise and win on tougher maps/levels, rather than making it harder as several have suggested (I think because of not understanding how trading works).

On lower levels it may well be that Blake's point about the AI missing key techs dominates. But it's kinda moot anyway - as I've said all along anyone that is getting outteched in the late game on Monarch or below needs to look at their play not the settings.

[rah]

That's the point as far as I'm concerned. Early on, at the higher levels the AI can out tech you so trading can be advantagous to you. (i'll agree there) But later in the game, you're right, you should be able to out tech the AI, so why let them be able to trade to keep up.
Having a tech lead when the warring starts is more important than during the first 1000 years.

I've played about half my games with it and the other half without it, and I always seem to do better without it. Since I have reasonably good success playing the above average levels, my play can't be that bad.
So experience is forming my opinion, so it will be hard to convince me otherwise. (as it should be)

When I have a vassel and they won't even trade me a tech, it's pretty silly. I wonder if an AI vassal ever refuses to trade a tech to it's AI master. I'd be curious to know.

Is tech trading a crutch for you?

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by rah
That's the point as far as I'm concerned. Early on, at the higher levels the AI can out tech you so trading can be advantagous to you. (i'll agree there) But later in the game, you're right, you should be able to out tech the AI, so why let them be able to trade to keep up.

I've played about half my games with it and the other half without it, and I always seem to do better without it. Since I have reasonably good success playing the above average levels, my play can't be that bad.
So experience is forming my opinion, so it will be hard to convince me otherwise. (as it should be)

Well that assumes you can catch up without trading. Below immortal maybe that is the case, but on immortal and deity (though I almost never play the latter) lightbulbing and trading at key junctures is often the only thing that keeps you in it.

I'll not make it personal by saying it applies to you, but anyone that finds it hard to stop the AI overtaking them in tech (with or without trading) on emperor and below just needs to work on their game.

So yes, my view is that turning off tech trading to take advantage of the points that Blake mentions on the lower levels is creating a crutch that will stop development as a civver.

[rah]

If tech trading is the only thing that keeps you in it at the higher levels, maybe the real problem is your play. (I'm sorry but I couldn't resist that one)

Deity still is reasonably impossible for me, with or without tech trading. The only exception is a few OCC conquest victories. But OCC is almost cheating.

Imortal is still iffy for me, but I have had better results without tech trading. So the jury is still out there.

You're right on emperor and below, I agree the game is much easier without tech trading.

I guess it comes down to personal preference. A persons play style should adapt to whatever conditions are being used. I'm usually at war in the mid to late game so it's harder to take advantage of trading. I prefer war so I prefer no tech trading.

I'm sure when I play for other outcomes I'll have to reconsider my choices.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Originally posted by Blake

take with a wife of salt? wife of salt?

It's a Lot of salt, dude

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by rah
You're right on emperor and below, I agree the game is much easier without tech trading.

Who are you agreeing with? I believe that your point is in disagreement with comments made by others.

Actually no one has given any measure of how they decide which option is better so everyone appears to be giving a subjective opinion. If you can tell me how much tech trading benefits the human and AI (ie % tech improvements) then the answer would probably be obvious.

Of course this would still depend on intelligent play. Tech trading allowed requires more careful tech selection so the results would differ if research were careless enough to offer lots of inter-AI trading opportunities.