New Vassal State Information

[johnmcd]

Sounds cool to me!

Becoming a vassel in an OCC game might be an interesting approach.

I wonder if a vassel counts as a foreign trade partner?

[One_more_turn]

The concept of Vassal states has long been implemented in SMAC. I'm wondering why it took so long to get it into Civ series. I always hate it when I have to spend lots of turns just to hunt down the last couple of AI cities on some remote islands. Now it actually makes sense to leave AIs with something instead of all-out extermination campagnes. I still remember how great it was to subdue the University faction in SMAC.

[MightyTiny]

The only thing I find a bit odd about this vassal implementation is the fact of the increasing maintenance costs from having a vassal.

I mean who ever heard of a conquering state pouring MORE money into a (peaceful) vassal state than they get out of it?

It would seem to me that any conquering state would tax the vassal state at the very least to cover the costs of the upkeep of the cities of the vassal state, and the cost of garrisoning troops in the vassal cities. Am I wrong here?

The feature does indeed look good for wrapping up a domination game quicker though.

[One_more_turn]

Think of Marshal Plans or all the money we spent on defending Japan and South Korea.

Russians also blew a fortune in Vietnam.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by MightyTiny
I mean who ever heard of a conquering state pouring MORE money into a (peaceful) vassal state than they get out of it?

Iraq?

[johnmcd]

Northern Ireland?

Nicaragua?

Israel?

Tibet?

I'm struggling to think of an ocassion when the vassel did pay its way to be honest.

[Watiggi]

I'm struggling to think of an ocassion when the vassel did pay its way to be honest.

Genghis was paid tribute from his Vassals. It was very one sided and a number of times the Vassals contributed people like administrators, teachers, engineers, etc to Genghis. Many of these types of people were resettled to the Mongol capital and contributed immensely to the Mongol empire.

[padillah]

Yeah, but the problem is if they are that much smaller that they feel the only way out is to become a vassel, how much could they possibly have?

That's like some kid moving back in with mom 'cause he's broke and Mom makes him pay all the bills. Doesn't really add up.

Tom P.

[yin26]

Don't assume you'll always be accepting these offers from absolute positions of strength. You might be running low on forces yourself and desperately need to rebuild and focus on infrastructure back home. Clearly if you can easily just take the enemy's cities, you probably should...but that won't always be the case, one suspects.

[padillah]

I'd like to hear more about the vassel as a trade partner. Do they still retain the ability to research whatever they want? Can I still trade with them? Are they any more or less inclined to trade with the master than with others?

Then we might be getting more out of this than we thought. If you pay attention to what your vassel is researching you can trade him for it, you are kind of getting the benefit of their research, but so are they.

Of course doing so benefits the vassel and may allow them to rebuild and come back to beat you, so it's nothing you want to do too often... Hmmm, this may have some interesting strategic applications after all.

One other question, will the AI ever actually go for this? This isn't going to be like trading cities which is a farce 'cause the AI NEVER does it, is it? What the heck kind of option is it when no one will ever entertain the notion of using it?

BTW that bothers me so bad when the trade screen comes up and I see the list of cities there... It's just the stupidest thing in this game. Why have that?

Tom P.

EDIT: Corrected spelling.

[yin26]

Originally posted by padillah
BTW that bothers me so bad when the trade screen comes up and I see the list of cities there... It's just the stupidest thing in this game. Why have that?

For most of your questions, I'll leave it to Solver...but you're asking the right things. For this last question, the best use I've seen for that is gifting the AI a city. When might you do this? Well, you might have a conquered city that is bound to culture flip anyway, so giving this city back to the AI can go a LONG way to repairing diplomatic relations. One of the great accomplishments in Civ 4 IMO is, depending on your map and difficulty settings, diplomacy simply *cannot* be ignored lest you find youself on the other end of a dog pile.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I am curious to see how much city maintenance costs are increased for the master. This could be a significant deterrent to vassalizing someone.

[padillah]

Originally posted by yin26

For most of your questions, I'll leave it to Solver...but you're asking the right things.

Thanks.

For this last question, the best use I've seen for that is gifting the AI a city. When might you do this? Well, you might have a conquered city that is bound to culture flip anyway, so giving this city back to the AI can go a LONG way to repairing diplomatic relations. One of the great accomplishments in Civ 4 IMO is, depending on your map and difficulty settings, diplomacy simply *cannot* be ignored lest you find youself on the other end of a dog pile.

Then it should be an option on the city screen, not a diplomacy entry. It gives the illusion that the AI might be persuaded to give you a city. If you were the most powerful civ in the game and had hundreds of units hovering all around it's smallest city the AI still wouldn't give you the city. It's just not a "real" option.

(honestly, that the last OT post, I swear)

Tom P.

[MightyTiny]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Iraq?

Would you count Iraq as a vassal, and peaceful one at that?

If iraq was peaceful, wouldn't the US be clearly on the plus side economically; after all, they did secure very favourable oil agreements for US companies didn't they? And I don't believe the Iraqis are paying taxes to the US government, so I think counting them as vassals is kinda stretching it.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by johnmcd
Northern Ireland?

Nicaragua?

Israel?

Tibet?

I'm struggling to think of an ocassion when the vassel did pay its way to be honest.

Scotland?

Switzerland?