Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume III

[couerdelion]

I think I first need to learn how to play at Emperor level again before I allow the AI to use some intelligence. I really never have got the hang of 0% research

[frenzyfol]

Awsome thread.
My knowledge of the first part of the game is 10X what it use to be. Do you have plans for writing about mid to late game?

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by frenzyfol
Awsome thread.
My knowledge of the first part of the game is 10X what it use to be. Do you have plans for writing about mid to late game?

It is a lot more difficult to write a lot about the middle-game or late-game because of the variable nature in which the game develops. Even the variables at the start are significant enough to make the strategy guide a little general but after a few thousand years then the flavour of the game will dictate things far more than a guide.

For example
- are you running a specialist heavy economy – probably with Pacifism, Representation?
- What is your military standing (particularly which resources you have)?
- Do you have sufficient other resources to grow cities?
- How are you placed diplomatically?

Personally, I would tend to run on a general plan which occasionally looks at the overall strategic situation and decide where my next few steps are going to be. Sometimes I will have longer term plans but I will be looking to get there in a series of incremental steps. In practice my goal is going to be to improve net gold, beakers and hammers so most of my work will be designed to achieve this.

Maybe it is possible to write something on this but it will be a lot less detailed than the early game guide.

[couerdelion]

Vel,

We haven't heard from you for awhile. I was wondering if it might be an idea to "farm out" one of the sections. If you are intending to write something about each leader then it could be worthwhile getting some people to play out a few sample games or to figure out a generic strategy for them.

Particularly with the new leaders, new traits and UB's I think there may be scope for plenty of ideas here and we could get the whole thing done a lot quicker if we start playing around with them now rather than later.

What you you (all) think?

[Addled Platypus]

and make it an AU course ?

YES

[Velociryx]

*big sigh* yes...sorry guys, with my new work schedule (10-7, and and a LOOOONG communte (1.5 hours going, 2+ coming home), I don't get much time to myself these days. I'm workin' on changing that, but as it stands now, it's maybe one day in ten? Not enough to really put anything substantial together. I did get the chance to do some serious Civvin' yesterday, and that was a blast, but that was the first time in about forever.

-=Vel=-

[Addled Platypus]

nice to know you still play'n

we will be waiting in the wings

[Valentinavale]

I really want to thank Vel for this really explicative piece of paper: Volume III!!
I am new to this game and I was surfing the net looking for some Guide for beginners, something to get me started.
This Volume III has been extremely helpful, easy to read and to comprehend.
I will try to put into practice some of the strategies that best suite my style, because i do not like war at all, i prefer building.
Having so appreciated it i will be looking for the other two!
Thanks again, for all the time and effert you sure put into it.
My best
Valentina
Milano, Italy

[guermantes]

I too would like to cheer in with my appreciation of this writing effort. It is as pleasant a read as it is informative.

After reading build 3 of the guide I feel the big picture is getting clearer and clearer, to the extent that I will even have the audacity of suggesting a correction. Is it not so that Monarchy is reached by either Monotheism or Priesthood, rather than by both of them together (cfr 'Gateway Techs')?

Cheers!

[CapTVK]

I can only add my thanks to Vel for this guide. I´m a Civ I/II veteran who totally* passed over Civ III and only was able to play Civ IV since the start of this year. Finally I´ve gotten around to a few tries. A lot of the concepts like "g-men", religion and cultural borders are totally new to me as Vel´s guide is a good primer even if you´re a Civ veteran. The general strategy Vel describes is is A-B-C to me but the description, hints and tips on the various game concepts is well written and top notch!

*Actually I did play it, only to uninstall it after playing through half a game.

[CapTVK]

Oh maybe I can add my minute part to the guide. In the few tries so far I´ve been noticing that depending on the wonders you build you can fall into a g-men "trap". For example, stonehenge will mean you increase the likelihood of generating great prophets. Now that´s a decision that results from particular wonder building but it can become annoying if only great prophets pop up.

[Velociryx]

Hey guys – I’m sorry that I have been unable to spend more time here…looks like I’ve been missing out on a bunch of good discussions!

Thanks to everyone who has written in, and I'm glad you've enjoyed what we have so far...I'm trying to get my work life sorted out so I have more free time, but...it is slow going, so I’ve not had much free time, but in the odd moments that I DID manage to scrape together, I wrote a little something to serve as a companion to the notion of mapping out a good strong tech path.

Of course, each Civ is going to be different (because each Civ has different traits and starting techs), but here’s the kind of thing I’m (eventually) going to do for all the Civs.

I’ll start with everybody’s favorite early game terror, the Inca.

The Inca were greatly strengthened by the Warlords add-on, taking them, IMO, from sub-par to one of the strongest Civs in the game.

They are Financial and Industrious, which gives us two outstanding traits to work with, and even better, the traits share a high degree of synergy.

Financial, of course, means more money, which means better than average tech, and Industrious means cheap Forges for bonus hammers, and faster wonder building (and, since you have better than average tech and cheap forges, you should be able to start—and finish!—most any wonder you set your sights on to help propel you to victory.

Unfortunately, Industrious is a bit of a two-edged sword, especially if you like building Wonders, because you can get all bedazzled and focused in on them, to the exclusion of everything else, so it’s best to use the speedy wonder construction like a razor…a precision instrument to get the ones you really want, rather than a net that tries to snag them all.

The Inca are quadruple blessed. Truly a joy to play.

Their first blessing is in their already mentioned traits. Individually, they’re both quite strong, but in tandem, they’re incredible.

Their second blessing is in their UU. The lowly Quechua might not look like much, but he’s a real menace in the early game, and a cost effective way to run over a near neighbor who is defending with archers. Early expansion by conquest is very much a possibility with this Civ, and once you’ve crippled or eliminated a near neighbor, it’s easy enough to give these guys the Shock promotion and (given terrain advantages and time to fortify), they’ll perform admirably well against barbarian Axes until you get something better cooked up.

Third blessing would be their Unique Building. The Terrace (which replaces the Granary, which is on the “must build” list for just about every city you’ve got, acts just like a Granary, and provides +2 culture per turn, giving you, in essence, a somewhat slow-blooming Creative Trait, for free.

Finally, they are blessed in their starting techs. Agriculture and Mysticism open up lots of doors.

Based on these things, I will outline a very specific tech path, and one I often use when playing this Civ.

1) Obviously, the optimal start with this Civ would be one that’s coastal, with Corn, Rice, Wheat, or a Flood Plain in your fat cross. Basically something you can put your starting food tech to use on. If you start with one of the above in your Fat Cross, then you’re already ahead of the game. You can go worker first, and he’ll have something to do that will speed you along. With this Civ, if I don’t see one of the above tiles in my fat cross, I’ll be tempted to move my Quechua first to see if I can spot something I can use, and I’m not above spending a turn or two NOW to find something, so I don’t have to waste lots of time researching a food tech right away. As I continue to play, I'm increasingly more inclined to NOT accept my starting position, and move if I stand a reasonable chance of finding land that plays more into my starting techs. This is purely a timing thing. I play mostly on Marathon, so each tech takes quite some time to research. That said, it is often well worth 2-3 turns of searching to find what I'm looking for, rather than 16-20 turns spent researching something to "fit" the land I happen to start in, and in practice, I find that I can put Agriculture to immediate use in about 60% of my starts. With nominal exploring (1-3 turns) that rises to 100% (I’ve never had a situation where I could not locate a suitable start within a 3 turn window, but of course, best of all is if you don’t have to move a bit!). Only if your starting spot is simply ferociously good should you stick around and research some other food tech off the cuff (I’d still move and simply come back to it later). So…Settle in a location that makes use of your starting food tech, and start cranking a Worker. Research-wise, while your worker is cooking, make a path of Mining and Bronze Working.

2) You want to start scouting with an eye toward a second city site. If you find huts, that’s great, but really, you’re looking for a next-door neighbor to kill, or a juicy spot to plant your second city. Go slow, be thorough, and make a broad circle around your capitol, so you uncover as much of the fog in your general vicinity as possible. If you find a neighbor, then as soon as your worker is done, start cranking out Quechuas. When you get Bronze Working, chop out a few. I use 8-10 typically, and with pops and chops (and leaving the Capitol briefly undefended), you can get to this number VERY quickly. Neighbor’s dead, and you’ve got your second city in a guaranteed good spot. In practice though, you don’t typically find a rival that close (maybe 20% of the time if you accept game standard settings…of course, if you are playing Inca, then you may want to include more than the usual number of Civs just so you can guarantee having someone to run over), so odds are that you’re not going to find someone close enough to bulldog with your UU, and that’s fine. If you don’t, what you’re looking for is a place with at least three forest tiles in the original nine squares, preferably with copper in the fat cross, and at least 1 hill. If there’s no copper in your zip code, then you’ll want 3 forests in the original nine, and at least two hills (and of course, sufficient food to use them…food source doesn’t have to be in the original nine…just so long as it’s in the fat cross, you’re good). If this site can be arranged to be coastal as well (and/or on a river), then you’re that much further ahead of the game, but if you have to pick one or the other, then for God’s sake, snag the copper and run to the coast with your next city! I promise you that there are more coastal tiles than there are tiles containing copper, so you can snag one of those later. You want to time it out such that you get Bronze Working just before your settler is done, so count how long it takes. Once your worker is done, if you need to build a Quechua next, go for it. Assuming at least one expendable forest in your capitol’s fat cross, you can use the worker to chop the settler out to make up time, if needs be….the main goal here is that you snag copper with that second city, if possible. If it’s not possible, then at least you know, right? And you know that your Quechuas will have to be pulling double duty for a while. A side note here - if I find and found my second city with a copper source in its fat cross, and further, if said copper source and my cities are not river connected (usually they are not), then I'm VASTLY inclined to make "The Wheel" my next tech, so I can start cranking out axemen straightaway...helps the poor Quechua in terms of Barbarian defense to have "Big Brother" watching over them, and later, he makes a top flight addition to the attack force!

3) As soon as that second city is founded, it starts building StoneHenge. Meanwhile, your worker is busy chopping out a second worker (surely you have at least one additional forest in the vicinity of your capitol, even if you have to go outside the borders under guard!). Getting that second worker out fast—sacrificing at least one ‘pre-math’ forest--is crucial, cos as soon as he’s complete, you’re sending them both over to second city and you’re chopping out StoneHenge. While you’re doing this, you’re researching like crazy to Meditation and Priesthood, and your goal is to use chops (no pops) to time it out such that you finish StoneHenge as soon as you get Priesthood (or really shortly thereafter). Do that, and BANG! Your borders jump out like lightning, and you start generating Prophet points in your second city. Now, while this is happening, your capitol is building more Quechua as needed for adequate defense (and this will depend on your particular situation), and maybe prepping another settler (which you’re not going to use yet…even if you get him done, you’re gonna hold onto him for a few turns). Research-wise, after you get Priesthood, you’re going to make for Writing, and time the completion of the Oracle (that’s why you got Priesthood) to as few turns as you can arrange after you snag Writing (use pops and chops here to make sure you don’t get beaten to it). For your free tech, take Code of Laws, the ability to build Court Houses, and a shiny new religion (now, you have 4 GPP’s per turn, and a 100% chance to get a prophet as your first GP…this will be used to build your Great Temple, and basically serve as the centerpiece to your economy for the whole game). Once you’ve got writing, your capitol will start chewing on a Library, with an eye toward assigning 1-2 scientists as you’re able to start a second GP cooking (yep, you guessed it, for the Academy). If you were able to build another settler during the waiting period, be mapping out where you want him to go (and maybe even get him in place, under guard), so that when you complete the Oracle and found the religion in your Holy City, you can immediately build your third city. If you’ve not been able to crank out another settler, now is the time to begin thinking in terms of expansion! (If, for some reason I miss StoneHenge--which happens only rarely, but is possible--then I'm inclined to seek out some stone in my zip code and hook it up when I trade for, or research Masonry a bit later. Stone + a Quarry makes the Chichen Itza (affectionately called "The Chicken" around here) an easy build, and you still wind up with your four GPP's per turn, all Prophet-based).

4) At this point, you have a decision to make. To switch or not to switch to your religion? If you’re on a continent that’s already seen another religion take hold, you may be better off not switching and wait for someone else’s religion to work its way into your lands. That way, you don’t have to worry about a possible war when all you’ve got is Quechua’s running around. On the other hand, if nobody near you has a religion, shoot your free Missionary off into a neighbor’s capitol and see if they switch. If they do, you can follow suit and have a reliable ally for the bulk of the game. So…experiment with it, but in most cases, I’d use my Missionary on someone else’s city to see if I can make them switch, rather than using it internally. Opens up more doors. I’d also wait until I snagged Alphabet to commit to a religion, so you don’t close any tech trading doors. At this point, research wise, you need to look to your defense. If you snagged copper, then you’re good, but for snagging the wheel for roads, but if not, then you’re going to need Animal Husbandry to find the horses (you’re gonna need it sooner or later, and it may as well be sooner). If you strike out with both Horses and Copper, then run to Archery as a safety tech, and count yourself adequately defended—some well placed archers with the right upgrades can dance the dance with barbarian Axemen on favorable terms, and your Quechua can eat the archers for breakfast.

5) While you’re doing the requisite research to take care of your Civ’s basic defensive needs, you’re building troops, settlers, and workers (I average 1 worker per city in the early game), and basically just gobbling up land. Don’t worry too much if you note that your research begins to falter…help will soon be on the way (and in truth, you’ve already got the ability to build Court Houses, which should enable you to drive your expansion quite nicely). In practice, I like to get 3-4 of my own cities up and running, and then start getting serious about the military, but that’s very much a situational thing…highly dependant on what kind of game you’re playing and how much land you’ve got. Once your defensive needs are taken care of, your next stop is either pottery or fishing (this will depend on how many coastal tiles you’ve got vs. how many cottage friendly tiles you’ve got (river adjacency or flood plain). Time to start making full use of that Financial trait you’re famous for! In any case, whatever order you wind up getting these in, if you’re coastal at all, you’re going to want the full set. If you have, you need roads and cottages (and something other than troops and barracks for your cities to build), so this is the next logical stop—and this will keep your workers busy for some time to come! Right on the heels of pottery, however, you also need Fishing if you’re coastal, so you can start making use of those valuable coastal tiles! (so your next three techs, in order, ought to be Roads, Pottery, Fishing). This will see the overall state of your economy begin to improve, and see your research times start to drop, which is good because…

6) Alphabet will be the next item on your agenda! Snag it, and see what techs you can pick up on the cheap. Probably, you can trade your way to Monotheism with what you’ve got, and that’s handy if your religion of choice has spread nicely (and even if not, it makes building the Missionaries a breeze). This is my usual goal, although if someone has been kind enough to research Math for me, then that’s always a good one to snag! You can generally cherry pick your way to Monotheism, and get either Iron, or Math, or both, depending on your trading partners. Once you’ve fleeced them, feel free to tick any number of them off by adopting whatever religion suits you. They have served their purpose! Research wise, pick Metal Casting next, since you’re unlikely to get that one in trade, and spend a few turns doing your trades and comparative shopping to see who will give you the best deals. If you wind up not getting Math, then you’ll probably want to switch gears and go for math before Forges, but it doesn’t hurt to put some cycles on that tech, since you’ll be needing it anyway, and prolly won’t be able to trade for it (AI seems quite reluctant to part with it, in my experience).

7) Math and Metal Casting are pretty much tied in their overall importance to you, and after that, you’re going to want construction and then currency (in that order, and assuming you’re not by yourself…obviously, you don’t have as much need for construction if you’re alone). Math is your license to chop, and while you’re researching Construction, you’re building LOTS of your mainline attackers (either Chariots, Axemen, or Archers, as the case may be based on the above), and when you get Construction, you’re going to pop and chop out a slew of Catapults, and go conquer a neighboring Civ (or, more precisely, you’re going to fight an Oscillating War with ALL your neighbors, taking a couple cities from each in order to cripple them…if you have a religiously friendly neighbor you want to preserve, he/she may be left out of this cycle of violence), and while you’re growing at the expense of your neighbors, you’ll be researching toward Currency, which is the last thing you’ll need in order to put together a fully functioning Empire. If possible, snag the Colossus here. The AI seldom makes this Wonder a priority, and you can oftentimes squeeze it out (~75% of the time, even with this casual approach to it). Well worth the effort for what it does to your economy!

8) Once Currency is yours, you’re going to snag Literature and build the Great Library in your Capitol, and from here, you’ll bee-line to Banking to nearly double the size of your economy, keeping the pressure on, militarily, and growing at every opportunity (whether peacefully, by way of your own settlers, or conquest, and probably some combination of both).

What this should do is see you reach a dozen or so cities by the time you get Knights, and be first in land area. Even if your economy is flagging somewhat, it doesn’t matter. If you’re #1 in land area by the time you hit Banking, you’ve got the game in the bag.

There are essentially four ways you can proceed from this point.

a) If you’re still in the process of subduing your neighbors, and have a decent number of horse troops, make for Military Tradition to end the matter.

b) If you’re still in the process of subduing your neighbors, and have mostly foot troops, make for Rifling and end the matter.

c) If you still need more time, then go for Steel after this and end the matter.

d) If you’ve already subdued your neighbors (and this is the preferable spot to be in), then make for Printing Press and Economics and you can coast for the rest of the game.

You’ll see this same basic theme repeated in most of my advice. I tend to play this basic style, regardless of what Civ I draw, but of course, each Civ has an optimized methodology and approach to it, tweaked to play to the strengths of the particular Civ in question. The destination tends to be the same, but the route taken to get there varies.

-=Vel=-

[Verrucosus]

That's a trap I've fallen into quite a few times. Stonehenge and - to a lesser degree because it comes later - the Oracle are real distractions from an early academy. On the other hand, when you don't go for an early religion, have no intrinsic culture bonus and see a pile of stones near your capital, it's hard to resist to use Stonehenge as an easy way to get your borders out.

It looks as though progress with the Candle Bre' Project - which is exciting news - has put the guide on the backburner for now, but that may turn out to be quite an opportunity, because it will give Vel the chance to incorporate the upcoming changes to the later parts of the game and the discussions they will generate here.

[EDIT: Looking at the giant post that just appeared a minute before mine, "back burner" appears to have been an inaccurate term to use.]

[couerdelion]

No posts for over a month and then three come along at once.

Just a few comments on the Inca strategy.

One thing that I would definitely not rule out here is going for an early religion. But this needs a few adjustments to the basic model play described.

1) At higher levels it is often safer to go for Polytheism since Buddhism is almost always the first religion to be snagged by the AI. Not that while this is more expensive - thus delaying Bronze Working and Priesthood - it is not completely out of the Oracle path.

2) When researching for an early wonder, it is often safer to work a food+commerce tile and to grow - thus delaying the worker. In fact, the worker will not have a great deal to do so a warrior build might be in order.

So we've delayed a worker and bronze but have started on the path to Oracle and to warfare (and get faster scouting)

3) Why not build the Oracle and Stonehenge in the capital? It still concentrates the Prophet points and you'll probably be using the highest production city for both builds.

4) By snagging an early religion, you won't be needing CoL for Confucianism. Use the Oracle for Metal Casting for early forges.

I would also comment that the delay in founding a city is of much smaller consequence when playing marathon. I would not recommend looking around for very long at the faster speeds.

[Velociryx]

Lionheart! Hiyas!

And your post above has once more outlined beautifully the dynamic nature of the game. Yes yes! I could totally see changing the flavor of my original post to do it that way. This is, in truth, my deepest hope! That people will read the above and find ways of making it their own...find ways of tweaking the basic model until they find something that they're really jazzed about and happy with. THAT, IMO, is where the real magic is, and "recipies" such as those that we both posted are really more of a place of beginning than anything.

I'd definitely not say that what I posted above is the "right" or only way of getting the job done. Doubtless there are tens, if not scores of equally viable approaches, but...for those who are having some difficulty, and maybe looking for a step by step methodology that works to learn from, I think the two provided thus far would take folks quite far.

And total agreement re: starting positions and faster speeds. Movement becomes hyper critical the faster the game, which is partly why I cannot bear to play on anything below Epic. Game just feels too rushed for my tastes.

-=Vel=-