Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume III

[fed1943]

Hi Chris, very good to ear from you.

About Incans, I play a lot with them, and like more closer Couerdelion

said, but Stonehenge.

Early religion (maximum commerce for it) needed seminal techs,

Pottery; quechua,worker and terrace (not Stonehenge) and settler.

Oracle in production city for Metal and Shrine; library and scientist

in commerce city.

(Still some problem with Oracle+decent defense. Do you want to

elaborate about, buddy?).

All good.

[Velociryx]

Hiya Fed, and you make a very good point.

One of the biggest weaknesses of an early Oracle play is the compelling lack of defense.

It is a common problem, and to address it, I've adapted my own strategy as indicated above.

Now, it is true that by foregoing Bronze, and striking out for one of the early religions, you get that particular prize a good bit more quickly...for my tastes, what you give up (security, or failing that, good solid knowledge of where the copper is) is too high a price to pay.

I would rather take a slightly later religion and see to my defense, but that is a stylistic difference, for the most.

Likewise, the decision not to center my prophet points in the Capitol is largely one of stylistic preference. The Capitol will be, in the overwhelming majority of cases, the big science producer for the foreseeable future, and I'm rather partial to not mixing my prophet points with the science ones to come later (Great Lib build in the Capitol)...besides, splitting them up allows me to put Wall Street and Oxford in two different places...more flexibility (and later, I like the National Epic in with all the religious builds to give me more Prophets in the mid and late game).

So...a multitude of ways of approach the problem...mostly, it comes down to what your comfort level is. Based on your description, it sounds like your game is a bit outside your comfort zone, at least where defense is concerned. Give my recipe a go and see how it serves you.

-=Vel=-

[Thedrin]

4 strengths of the Incas: trait combination, starting techs, unique unit, unique building.

What jumps out at me is that the free creative trait of the Terrace is ignored. By building Stonehenge and going for a number of religous techs before pottery it loses a great deal of its power.

This isn't a criticism; the strategy looks solid. On paper the terrace has always looked like one of the most powerful unique buildings (I avoid playing the Incans so I can't really comment). I guess the Incans have too many good, early-game bonuses to be able to get the most out of all of them.

[Velociryx]

Well...yes and no, I think. Allow me to clarify.

A resounding yes to the notion that pottery IS significantly delayed.

Under certain starting conditions (say, with plentiful flood plains in the vicinity), a race toward pottery first could be HUGE, but IMO, the religious gambit also plays into the Financial trait, albiet, indirectly.

You can afford to be somewhat delayed in taking pottery (at least as compared to a non-financial civ) because first they've got to get pottery, build one or more cottages and then work them for a significant number of turns to get the per turn gold that you're going to get right from jump, and they'll *never* be able to touch what you can earn from coastal tiles, so there's a bit of window of time during which you can delay.

In the meantime though, you're not wasting that time. The setup originally described gives you 4 Prophet GPP's for minimal investment, which can be parlayed into a great number of Prophets through the course of the game (the first of which sets you up to build your temple and further enhance your financial position). I guess here, my thinking is that there's only seven religions in the game, and so there will be seven (or fewer) temples built....Potentially, there are thousands of places a cottage might go, so if I have to choose which one I'll pursue first, I'll almost invariably gravitate to the more rare of the two (true, you can let the AI found the religion and build the temple even, but there's something attractive about doing it all on your terms that I find....hard to resist. )

As to creative....such a delightfully strong trait. And while the Inca can make certain use of it, it's typically too slow moving to be utilized in traditional ZOC-block ways that Civs with the native trait are capable of (oh sure, with an abundance of trees you could chop out a terrace as a first build and thereby closely approximate a Civ that actually has the creative trait (and this is enhanced by building StoneHenge), but as for using your culture as an (offensive) weapon...that's not really an Incan strong suit. Defensively, of course...the Inca are generally among the most cultured in the game, and you can create wide pillage zones and absorb lots of border cities, but the Incan "creative trait" is something of a slow bloomer. Still powerful, to be sure, but not nearly as flexibile as the "natural" creative trait, IMO.

-=Vel=-

[couerdelion]

Here’s where I start to get a little surprised by the confusing signals. If we presume that the Quecha is quite a competent little defensive unit in the early years then the drive to find copper to get axemen is not as crucial as it is for other civs.

If our target is Oracle, we can still get Bronze as a third tech and Priesthood as the fourth so the Oracle will hardly be something that we should worry about finishing before the barb axes arrive. Some judicious pop ‘n’ chop will get this done comfortably in time for us to research Wheel and Pottery (if we are using it to open Metal Casting) and then to get Animals in good time.

The delay in discovering copper is not really that critical if we remember that we have Quecha so should be able to use this to deny the AI access to the metal. Early religions with a quick shrine tend to spread like wildfire. And the holy city with a shrine, Stonehenge and Oracle will be a cultural monster which can be extremely effective in grabbing land – I’ve culture flipped Creative cities with these.

[Velociryx]

Well said and excellent points.

To that end, allow me to clarify further.

In the game of pool, there's a term called "english"...essentially, this term describes the notion of putting a certain back-spin on the ball in order to position it just where you want it to be for your NEXT shot.

That's where my mind is re: copper.

By timing it out so, I create a very efficient package.

IF there is copper in my vicinity, I shall have it, and I shall do so with my very next city.

It's true that on the day of the founding of that city, I don't really need Axemen right then...yes...granted.

But I have a lot of game left, and if I know that I've got the only source of copper for miles around, then this shades my thinking, and gives me a more accurate strategic reading right away (instead of allowing me to linger under some false hope--or not--until I find out.

And, should I get a nasty surprise, and the Axemen start trolling around earlier than I thought they might, it's of no great concern, because I've likely already got the answer.

It also opens the door for allowing me to build an early heavy hitter...say, for the Defensive Civ who built his city on a hill, or the creative one that already has a 40% cultural bonus.

In those cases, the Quechua...good as he is, could greatly benefit from a strong big brother, and if we can gain this heightened power and security at no risk to the Oracle timetable (I've never missed it on Monarch, using this very play), then there's no downside, and that's good stuff.

-=Vel=-

[couerdelion]

There is one main reason why I like the Religion first option. Playing at Emperor level can be heavy going in the early expansion stages if you have nothing to keep you happy. The happiness limits can be very restrictive if you are also using whips liberally. When you also consider that your first improvement is also a big food provider, you can then find yourself bump up regular into the unhappiness barrier which can then start a rather vicious circle of building settlers/workers with no population to support of the costs.

The option of using +1 happy from religion will free the civ immensely. Note also that this allows the whip unhappy capital to grow to 4 pop and therefore give a double-whip option.

Building the wonders in the capital also gets them done far more quickly by using whip overflows from workers and settlers to complete Henge and Oracle. I understand that having a religion in the second city is “tidier” and allows the capital to develop naturally as a purer science city. But the cost is having a quite significant delay in getting the big structures (Henge, Oracle, Shrine) up and running.

It goes without saying that this alternative also sets up the capital as a cultural giant. The mixture also speeds up the “pseudo-creative” side of Huayna so borders of new cities will flip their borders quickly too. What’s more, you’re far less likely to be caught on the wrong side of the religious “schism” because you will have a religion up and “enshrined” sooner, thus ensuring that it spreads rapidly to your neighbours.

Finally, the route gives the nice combination of Pottery (for UB and cottages) and Meral Casting (for cheap forges). Shortly after the completion of the Oracle, you’ll find that your cities have too many choices, what with terraces, forges, barracks, libraries to build. Oh and your myriad workers now can build cottages and roads too. The research trap that you mentioned in your approach barely even features in your calculations.

One thing I would say though is that the “basic” route is less risky when you are short of easy commerce. Notwithstanding that you might miss the race to Poly, this also delays Priesthood and Pottery putting at risk the Oracle. Furthermore, my using the capital to snag the wonders means that you won’t find it easy to add “Quecha Rush” to your list of must do things.

But as you say, it’s all in the style. And if my game yesterday has anything to go by, barbarians ARE a serious problem. I found the barb warriors made mincemeat of my Quecha with combat odds of 10% or less while the second barb axeman had no trouble killing my lone axeman across a river. Maybe an ealier barracks might help

[couerdelion]

Forgot to say earlier but it's good to have you back and contributing, Vel

Here are a few thoughts on the Inca strategy. I’ve just picked on a couple that stand out and with some changes might help things read more clearly. As ever, the writing is still good quality so I really am picking holes in what is a good draft.

In Step 1) you talk a bit about make some early moves before founding. Since these sorts of decisions are not unique to the Incas, there should be a separate part which discusses this question. All that the Inca-specific part needs then to do is to refer to this is passing and perhaps highlight civ-specific features (Agro and Fin-trait) which should affect the decision to move from the starting position. It is in that section that discussion might also veer off onto game-speed specific situation thus allowing any civ-specific plans to be more concise and avoid having to readdress all sorts of different set-up options such as what to do with Highlands, Islands, Pangeaa maps etc.

In Step 2) there are two distinct branches of the starting strategy that I noticed here. But I found that they sort of melded into one. I thought that the “Quecha rush” sort of got discussed and then forgotten. Now I believe that there is a place in the guide for an “Early rush guide” which would be written for the general strategy. So once again, there is nothing much that needs to be readdressed here. However, the Quecha rush is clearly an Inca-specific ploy so deserves a mention as a stand-alone step which highlights the option and identifies the differences between it and an axeman rush. It might even make sense to put Quecha rush as one of the possibilities in the “Early Rush guides” alongside Axemen and Chariots (Immortals/War Chariots). Where is a little confusing for me is how the Quecha rush option returns back to the main Inca-strategy – or if it simply opens up a whole new strategic branch.

[Swiss Pauli]

Nice to see you back on the boards, Vel!

I note that from your posts you play on Marathon, but -given the scaling problems with this speed - how far can one apply the approach(es) to the faster speeds?

[Velociryx]

Hey guys, and thanks for the welcome back! I have missed participating in the discussions, and will make it back this way as often as time allows!

With regards to organizing the writing...total agreement. It needs to be put into a more standardized format before being considered a part of the main article that leads off this thread, and that's coming. Mostly, this was a cobbled together collection of odd bits written during abbreviated lunch hours, so it probably (at least to a degree) reads like that (somewhat disjointed and all that). I'll polish it up and standardize it as I get time, but I wanted to get the main thoughts out there.

Quechua Rush: Truly, the Quechua have such a short lifespan that I can't see it surviving long as a "standalone" strategy or its own separate branch. That early in the game, unless you get mad kinds of hut money, you're not going to have the cash to upgrade the Quechua to Axes and continue a conquest in the early game, so probably, you're good for wiping out one civ early (if you get lucky enough to start close enough to one), and then, settle into some other routine (the Quechua will still make good garrisons or medics once you start cranking out more "traditional" attackers and such, but there will be a notable gap or lag there....only in rare circumstances will you find yourself able to crush a neighbor with Quechua, magically find the money to upgrade them all, and continue the conquest against some other near rival (again, not without such a significant gap that they'd have to be seen as two separate events, rather than one event comprised of two melded phases), so essentially, I treat the early rush with Quechua as an alternate means of getting mys second city (slowed a few turns...it's been my experience that IF you find a near enough neighbor, you typically don't execute the attack till shortly after you get bronze--following the recipie I originally posted--which puts you slightly later than the timeframe for the second city. Still, you make up for it by virtue of the fact that said conquered capitol is probably size 3-4, whereas your newly founded city would be starting from scratch, so it's very definitely worth the tradeoff (and, for the low price of 3-4 dead Quechua, you wind up with a city in a guaranteed good spot, and possibly a worker or two, so it's a good return on the hammers you'll lose in the attack)....all of which puts you able to nicely get back into the aforementioned groove and keep right on trucking!

Regarding the timeframe and rules of thumb for when to move, I would say two things.

1) The discussions we've had earlier about relocating to position yourself on a plains hill...those same rules of thumb work here. If you're willing to spend 1-3 turns looking for a suitable plains hill, then 1-3 turns finding a suitable spot to settle in from a timing perspective should still work out in your favor.

2) If you don't like that explanation, then try this one on for size: You know (roughly, if not exactly) how long it's going to take you to research your first food-oriented tech. So that's the length of time, expressed in turns, that you're going to have to spend researching a food tech if you find yourself in a spot that doesn't play to what you start with.

If you can find a suitable spot that DOES play to your starting techs in a number of turns less than it'd take you to research something that's useful given your starting positon, then there you go. In terms of beeline (important if you want to ensure you snag the all-important Oracle), you're better off with the move.

Of course, the move is even LESS painful the slower your playing speed, but that's a bonus, really.



-=Vel=-

[eluciv]

I think it's most relevant to consider the map you are playing. If I'm on Terra or Continents, I'm much more likely to make Bronze my first goal. With less land to settle, I can assume there will be less copper/iron and I want to find this out sooner than later. As Vel said, if I'm going about it right, I'll have myself at least 2 or 3 religious foundings before Islam puts an end to it all.

The benefit of Slavery 10-20 turns earlier can also get that first settler out that much sooner. Another reason to head straight for BW.

Regarding capital city and religion, I tend to agree with Vel and make my second city my religous center. Chances are it will most often be closer to AI cities than my capital and my culture will more effectively spill into their borders. I also follow right in line with keeping GProph points out of my capital almost all the time.

On higher levels, it's worth weighing the increase in happiness by becoming "devoted" early vs. remaining "secular" and gaining trade - especially when it's really only one happy face to gain in the near-term. Monarchy and its civic isn't that far out...especially if I am lucky enough to conquer the Pyramids early-on. I rarely (if ever) choose a state religion before Theocracy is available.

[fed1943]

If I rightly understood the question about where the religion city is

not about capitla or 2nd, but in the production city, not in the

commercial city.

Am I wrong?

Best regards,

[Jaybe]

The religious city cannot be chosen. The only way you can manipulate it is by HAVING cities other than the capital. After your religion-founding city is determined, then you are adjusting what you DO with the city.

When the opportunity to build Wall Street comes around, it would be good to have lots of hammers available (and maybe a great engineer). It is expensive (600 vs. Oxford's 400). Its gold production is primarily based on religion spread, so it isn't dependent on cottages...towns which can dominate your science-heavy capital.

[eluciv]

It can't be chosen per se, but if you have 2 cities, I've never seen it pop in the capital. In that way, you can basically control it. Actually, another reason I usually skip founding Buddhism or Hinduism - because I don't want them founded in the cap and poisoning my GPP pool with GProphs.

It works well for my playing style, though since that 2nd city is going to be the one to get bronze (if the cap doesn't have it) and along with that, I try to fit as many hammer-maximizing tiles in that city as I can. It's going to be the wonder/religion-founding/uber-production city if at all possible.

3rd city is on the coast...if niether of the others are.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by eluciv
Actually, another reason I usually skip founding Buddhism or Hinduism - because I don't want them founded in the cap and poisoning my GPP pool with GProphs.

This depends a lot on what your capital is using to generate GP. It will only be the premier GP farm if your best alternative city needs too much time to get the necessary infrastructure. And if it is the premium GP city, it will already have diluted GPs because of National Epic. In general a capital city will always get diluted GPP so what harm is there in one extra Prophet generator.

The big risk with the “English” play of getting a settler at the right time as you discover copper, is that you do not know that the copper will be accessible. So you still have chopping and whipping so it’s not that bad a deal. In the end you’ll get a later religion and a later shrine and the ability to build courthouses and libraries. For the Incas, I’d prefer to have terrace and forge build options first.

As for the prophets, these will arrive regularly so you might as well use this for something. After the shrine the obvious choices are theology (another religion + a war civic) or settling. Either works pretty well for you in the early game.