GPP City Specialization Strategies

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Re: Great Merchants

Originally posted by SandMonkey


So what are the thoughts on using a GM as a specialist as opposed to the one time bonus? And stacking "gold producing" GP (merchants and prophets) in your super gold producer?

Well, I wouldn't do it.. but that's just me. At least not at this point. I'm still playing with the idea of GPP specialization, so mixing any sort of GPP producers is a no-no at this time.

I say at this time, because upon further review it could be more beneficial to do as you suggest. I just haven't gotten to that point yet.

As far as the lack of love for GMs, I agree that they certainly can be useful.

But an assumption of my theory is that the hardest to get GP are likely to be the most valuable. That would make GAs and GPs the least valuable because they are the easiest to get. GE and GS the most difficult, with GM caught somewhere in the middle.

I'm certainly interested in a specialized GM city though, and I would do it just as you suggested, but I would add Caste System to the strategy as soon as possible to get additional Merchant Specialists pumping out GPP along with Colossus and the G Lighthouse.

In fact.. I might try doing that this afternoon. If you beat me to it, I'd be very interested in hearing your results from a more specialized GM city. (One without religion or prophets)

Glad that everybody has so far enjoyed and learned from the thread! (Myself included)

[SandMonkey]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat


If you then use the GS that are generated as superspecialists in that city, it's possible you will get to the point where even when the GL goes obsolete, that city will still out produce GS to the other city's GE.

That's the "rub" with super specialists.. you can't remove them, therefore don't have the same level of control as you do with regular specialists.

Super specialists don't produce GP points, so you can add as many superspecialists as you want, they won't effect the GP rate. So in your example, after the GL is obsolete the GS rate in that city will drop by 6 x your multipliers. Therefore the only reason you would be outproducing your GE city would be 1) you have numerous city specialists working, in which case you can take them away for a time, or 2) you have a ton of science wonders outproducing your GE city before Industrialism.


Speaking of which, what exactly is the consensus on the use of extensive superspecialists? I know it's really situation dependent, but in my GM example above I decided to use more as super specialists over the one time bonus.

After I tried to send one overseas, I found that city size is actually very important to the one time cash bonus calculation. An overseas capital that was roughly the same size (7) and distance from other overseas capitals gave a bonus of 3300 gold, whereas a capital that was on my continent, much closer, and larger (size 13) gave a bonus of 3900 gold.

I'm a business student, so I guess my biggest problem with the one time bonus is that there is no incentive in Civ4 to having a large bank balance, other than you can rush-buy wonders. In real life you can invest your money and earn interest on the balance over time. Therefore we could figure out if it would be beneficial to take the per turn amount (IRL comparable to a long term fixed interest security) and discounting the cash flows to get the present value, or taking the lump sum and adding interest over the time period. Of course this is all for nothing considering there's no interest in Civ4, which leads me to believe that the per turn bonus is actually the better choice. I also feel this way since you can spend 3000-5000 gold pretty quickly if you really try, and then your bonus is gone for the rest of the game. If you use the GM as a superspecialist, you receive a fair benefit (after Wall Street each one produces 18 gold per turn, along with +1 food which is surprisingly helpful) for the rest of the game.

Wasn't there a wonder in Civ3 that allowed you to gain interest on your bank balance up to a certain point? I think if this were an option in civ4 I would have to reconsider whether or not the one time bonus is beneficial.

[SandMonkey]

Re: Re: Great Merchants

Sorry for the double post

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
Well, I wouldn't do it.. but that's just me. At least not at this point. I'm still playing with the idea of GPP specialization, so mixing any sort of GPP producers is a no-no at this time.

As I said in my above post, superspecialists don't add GPP, so combining different types in a single city has no adverse effect on GP production.

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat

But an assumption of my theory is that the hardest to get GP are likely to be the most valuable. That would make GAs and GPs the least valuable because they are the easiest to get. GE and GS the most difficult, with GM caught somewhere in the middle.

Do you really feel that getting a GS is harder than getting a GM? I mean if you're specifically trying to get one, as is the strat of this thread. I think that getting the GL makes GS production easier, but I don't have the math to back up which one is technically easier to get. My experience is that getting a city ready to pop a GS is easier than getting the GM set up.

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
If you beat me to it, I'd be very interested in hearing your results from a more specialized GM city. (One without religion or prophets)

Well as I said before, in my game (Noble, Marathon) there are two religious shrines in the city, but so far I've produced 4 great merchants and no prophets. I'm still running at 100% Science in 1400 A.D., and earning +250 gpt. My Merchant city is producing well over 320 gold, and that number can only go up

[rewster1]

I'd say GMs are easier than GEs but harder than GSs to get. For GEs, you need to either build the pyramids which is expensive, or wait for metal casting and forges and even then you only get 1 engineer specialist allowed per city with a forge.
For GSs, you can get 2 specialists per city as soon as you have writing, a very early tech, and caste system allows unlimited scientists. The Great Library gives you two free specialists PLUS 2 GPP for the wonder itself, for 8 total GPP and three GS sources.
For GMs, you have to wait until currency, a relatively late tech compared to writing, or build the Great Lighthouse (masonry and sailing) and/or Colossus (metal casting). Caste system will still give you unlimited specialists

Since there is nothing comparable to the Great Library for merchants, and the tech for markets comes later than the tech for libraries, I'd put merchants in between scientists and engineers from easiest to hardest to get.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Maybe I'm missing some major points, but it seems to me that Caste System is absolutely critical to specialization until the late game, simply because you can't get enough of any one kind of specialist until you have advanced buildings. Is that basically the case?

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Maybe I'm missing some major points, but it seems to me that Caste System is absolutely critical to specialization until the late game, simply because you can't get enough of any one kind of specialist until you have advanced buildings. Is that basically the case?

I don't feel authorative to answer that, but I'll join you in asking the question BECAUSE I don't know what to do when Emancipation becomes available. I tried once, during a game where I was warmonger, going away from Emancipation for Serfdom to get some war-related improvements and the penalty is severe. Ditto, I assume, if I had been running Caste, (I wasn't interested yet in GPP specialization at the time.) Also, if you get Emancipation first, but don't run it, you are missing the satisfaction of having your opponents get penalized for not having it for the period it takes for them to get.

If you get it and keep running Caste, you get the penalty and your competitors don't. Of course, I'm wondering too if the penalty is less if you run an alternative civic that's perceived less distasteful than Serfdom.

RLM: Since the gang assures us there are no GPP effects to SuperSpecialists, it would seem they could be used for surplus GS as I suggested. Everybody needs more Science for most of the game, (until you start jamming off Future Techs, which I haven't found useful after the first one as I'm, either positively or negatively, never that close in game points by then that they matter.)

However, I was mostly being playful. Having more GE and less GS is certainly ideal and I've got a lot of ideas from here for my next game with GPP emphasis. (But if you really don't like your GS, you could have your axemen take them out in the woods and "off" them. )

THE GREAT MERCHANT CONTROVERSY: Another great idea for my next game; the GM specialized city. It's all about Gold, man, GOLD! "We love our precious!"

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by SandMonkey
... in my GM example above I decided to use more as super specialists over the one time bonus.

After I tried to send one overseas, I found that city size is actually very important to the one time cash bonus calculation. An overseas capital that was roughly the same size (7) and distance from other overseas capitals gave a bonus of 3300 gold, whereas a capital that was on my continent, much closer, and larger (size 13) gave a bonus of 3900 gold.

I'm a business student, so I guess my biggest problem with the one time bonus is that there is no incentive in Civ4 to having a large bank balance, other than you can rush-buy wonders. In real life you can invest your money and earn interest on the balance over time. Therefore we could figure out if it would be beneficial to take the per turn amount (IRL comparable to a long term fixed interest security) and discounting the cash flows to get the present value, or taking the lump sum and adding interest over the time period. Of course this is all for nothing considering there's no interest in Civ4, which leads me to believe that the per turn bonus is actually the better choice. I also feel this way since you can spend 3000-5000 gold pretty quickly if you really try, and then your bonus is gone for the rest of the game. If you use the GM as a superspecialist, you receive a fair benefit (after Wall Street each one produces 18 gold per turn, along with +1 food which is surprisingly helpful) for the rest of the game.

Wasn't there a wonder in Civ3 that allowed you to gain interest on your bank balance up to a certain point? I think if this were an option in civ4 I would have to reconsider whether or not the one time bonus is beneficial.

Now I'm double-posting again , but I really wanted to address this. There was an "interest-bearing" Wonder in Civ3, but the name escapes me and my strategy guide for C3 is buried somewhere. However, I don't know what others' experience was in Civ3, but I was broke all the time from running a huge military (even in the variants,) so I didn't get a lot of use out of out. Maybe the playtesters agreed or maybe something will turn up in the expansion. (I think it is easier to hold onto cash in C4, but as SandMonkey observes, there aren't a lot of incentives there.

I've been making those little "road trips" with the GM's a lot, but I haven't noticed the size parameter actually superseding the distance parameter. The strategy guide and Civopedia (as inadequate as that last is, in other ways, ) make clear you should travel as far away and, to as large a city, as you possibly can, to get the best results. My last "sojourn," as observed earlier in this thread, was to a size 10 Mongol capital on the opposite side of a non-round Highlands map; and that got me 5700 gold, which allowed upgrade of virtually all my large army.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

SandMonkey: Huh. Thanks for that, I thought SS did create GPP. If they don't, well hot damn! That's more of a benefit than a detriment. I'll have to check it out.

Nope... there's no wonder that provides interest. I think Wall Street did in Civ III.

As far as when to use Merchants or when to use them as super specialists, I think the common answer is going to 'it depends on when you get them'. In theory (if not in practice) adding a great person as a Superspecialist will provide you with more value of the course of the game than simply using them on a trade mission, or even popping a tech. Of course, the problem here is twofold: There is a 'cutoff' point where the SS will never provide you with enough to compensate for the lack of the one-shot deal.

GAs, for example, 4000 culture bomb or culture per turn? Same with GMs. It all depends on what year it is.

The second problem is that pretty much everything, gold, turns, time, hammers, research all have a greater value the earlier in the game.

Hermann: The 'problem' with Caste System is that it is very specific about what it does.. .or does not give you. It will only allow you to have unlimted Artists, Merchants or Scientists. Engineers and Prophets are prohibited. Prophets are usually easy enough to come by, but Engineers are not.

As far as GMs go, I made a rather weak attempt last night to create a GM city. But I failed miserably. It would have been my third city, but by the time I got it up and running the Great Lighthouse was already built and midway through building a forge the Collossus was completed as well.

Sure I can still go caste system and make it a GM city through specialists, which I might do, but ehh.. if you don't want the GPP it's usually better to have your people work the land itself then become specialists.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat Hermann: The 'problem' with Caste System is that it is very specific about what it does.. .or does not give you. It will only allow you to have unlimted Artists, Merchants or Scientists. Engineers and Prophets are prohibited. Prophets are usually easy enough to come by, but Engineers are not.

I suppose that's just as well or it would be too easy to generate free Wonders. In my current game I used a variant on The Paladin's "Alternate Pyramid Grab" and used a GE to rush the Pyramids. That left my capital as a pure GE city...except that Hinduism was founded there, and my second city generated a Prophet, and I needed the cash that the shrine would bring [pollution] and then that was the only city where I had the hammers to pump out the Great Library...

Actually, I'm lying. I didn't have enough hammers to pump out the Great Library *anywhere* but there were LOT of forests near my capital. Repeat, "were."

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard

I suppose that's just as well or it would be too easy to generate free Wonders. In my current game I used a variant on The Paladin's "Alternate Pyramid Grab" and used a GE to rush the Pyramids. That left my capital as a pure GE city...except that Hinduism was founded there, and my second city generated a Prophet, and I needed the cash that the shrine would bring [pollution] and then that was the only city where I had the hammers to pump out the Great Library...

Actually, I'm lying. I didn't have enough hammers to pump out the Great Library *anywhere* but there were LOT of forests near my capital. Repeat, "were."

Similar to my problems in the recent game, I ended up eating the pollution but getting practically no GE's now. Try harder next game.

Can I get some feedback about the Caste System/Emancipation alternative at late game that I brought up earlier? Does everybody automatically switch to Emancipation, even with the GPP emphasis?

[SandMonkey]

So this isn't exactly about GP Specialization, but rather the after effects.

I may have patted myself on the back a bit prematurely in a post above. I thought running at 100% science was a wonderful thing since it meant I would be kicking the AI's butt up and down the tech tree, and through the mid game that was true. But by the time I hit the late game techs, I ran into a major problem. With only 9 cities, and having science maxed for over 300 turns, I had no way to really ramp up my science production. Basically, since I was running at 100% for so long by the time most people would be kicking their science level up to compensate for increased tech costs I was already maxed out.

(and now for the part relavent to this thread!)

My only real option (other than war) was to switch over to Caste System and get as many scientists as possible. So now I have to make a decision: When is it no longer beneficial to stick to a GP Specialization strategy? Other than my merchant city (which is up over 450 gpt!), I can only assume that at this point in the game I should probably just bail on all of the other GP cities and just produce scientists. Also, as was pointed out earlier in this thread, eventually you hit a point where it just takes too damn long to produce a GP.

I find it interesting that I would have never used Caste System before in any other game, but since I've seen the power of the City Specialist and the Great Person, now it just seems like a natural progression!

And I just had another thought, I should probably switch to Representation and Free Religion to get their science benefits, shouldn't I?

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by SandMonkey
With only 9 cities, and having science maxed for over 300 turns, I had no way to really ramp up my science production. Basically, since I was running at 100% for so long by the time most people would be kicking their science level up to compensate for increased tech costs I was already maxed out.

Ack! Only 9 cities? I missed that part above otherwise I would have pointed that out to you. Expansion really kicks you in the pants early on, forcing your tech progress to drop in order to compensate, but once those additional cities 'come on line' they are certainly critical for the late game.

Also, what I've found helps (duh!) is to research techs that the AI really don't. Also, it fits in with this strategy that places zero emphasis on religion. So as you go deep into the tech ladder, you can then trade those techs backwards at a 1:3 ratio or so.

I love it when the computer tells me I'm only the 4th or 5th 'most advanced' civ but then all I need to do is trade one or two of my pricey techs for all the other techs that have been discovered.

I find it interesting that I would have never used Caste System before in any other game, but since I've seen the power of the City Specialist and the Great Person, now it just seems like a natural progression!

And I just had another thought, I should probably switch to Representation and Free Religion to get their science benefits, shouldn't I?

I agree with your assumptions. I would do everything that you are suggesting in order to regain or boost your tech advantage.

With one little caveat that it depends on the time of the game and also your Civ's financial strength. Can you afford more cities? Can you afford to rush build libraries in those cities with Universal Sufferage? If so, you might want to consider popping out a few more cities. If that's not an option, there's always the military way to expansion. I guess I'd say that if you have the time, I'd go for expansion first. It's the name of the game. (Or, well, it almost should be)

As for your idea on Caste System seems like a natual progression.. I don't know, perhaps I under-utilize it myself, but I usually only use Caste System mid-game or if I'm going for a cultural victory and need all those GAs.

However, I have come to a similar conclusion about Civ IV: It's all about GPP and Specialists. Sure, you can win without them, but if you want to be efficent or dominate, you have to utilize both to your maximum capability. In fact, I think all the other game functions are secondary.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by SandMonkey
So this isn't exactly about GP Specialization, but rather the after effects.

I may have patted myself on the back a bit prematurely in a post above. I thought running at 100% science was a wonderful thing since it meant I would be kicking the AI's butt up and down the tech tree, and through the mid game that was true. But by the time I hit the late game techs, I ran into a major problem. With only 9 cities, and having science maxed for over 300 turns, I had no way to really ramp up my science production. Basically, since I was running at 100% for so long by the time most people would be kicking their science level up to compensate for increased tech costs I was already maxed out.

...

And I just had another thought, I should probably switch to Representation and Free Religion to get their science benefits, shouldn't I?

If you are running at 100% science, you can operate your capital as a science city. Late in the game it should be delivering between 600 and 1,000 beakers per turn which will probably keep you in a relatively comfortable tech position.

The "problem" is that your capital will be churning out a lot of Great Scientists and Great Prophets, so running you capital as a GE farm is not on. Actually, I don't mind prophets or scientists. The scientists help me advance through the tech tree (or get added as super specialists if I don't like the tech they will discover). The prophets may give me a useful tech, or more likely they become super specialists in my production city where the hammers are useful and the gold helps me continue to run at 100% science.

With 100% science you should probably be in Representation (and definitely in Bureaucracy). As soon as I can, I adopt Pacifism to boost my GP production. At some stage, I will be getting enough beakers from my empire (and GPs will be so expensive) that it's worth switching from Pacifism to Free Religion. It's a fine judgement, but probably the switch-over point is when the cost of your GPs goes into 4 figures.

However, the downside of all this is a high level of GP "pollution". In my experience, it's difficult for your GP specialist city to out-pace your capital.

RJM at Sleeper's

PS: The science output quoted above is with a financial leader. With a non-financial leader, beaker output will probably be 60 or so lower. Also I'm used to playing with a philosophical leader. I suspect this doesn't change things too much; GP production will simply be slower with other traits.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat With one little caveat that it depends on the time of the game and also your Civ's financial strength. Can you afford more cities? Can you afford to rush build libraries in those cities with Universal Sufferage?

Well, if he's been running at 100% science for that long, he probably doesn't have much cash...unless he's had a lot of Great Merchants going abroad.