GPP City Specialization Strategies

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Re: Re: GPP City Specialization Strategies

Originally posted by Willem

As for lack of love for Engineers, I'd love to have more of them going but it's not easy. They're the hardest specialist to get any kind of high numbers on so I tend to concentrate on the others. It's easy enough to say that you should get those Wonders you mention, but actually beating the other AIs to them is a different story. So that only leaves you the Forge for a single Engineer until the Industrial Era.

Well, that's actually kinda exactly my point When something is that difficult to get, it does kinda make you wonder as to their relative value, doesn't it?

That's why I was trying to figure out how exactly to get them. As far as the AI, getting the pyramids is always a chore.. but if you have forests and stone, it's certainly not out of the question.

As far as the other two, I've never actually seen the AI 'focus' on the Hagia Sophia or the Hanging Gardens the way they do for the earlier wonders, pyramids, stonehedge, oracle, great lighthouse, great library, etc.. where you really have to fight with the AI in order to beat them to the punch.

But sure, if you miss any of the three and only have a forge, you're better off focusing on something else at that point!

Generaldoktor: Glad to see you tried it and glad to see it worked! But my question is how 'jumbled' was your GPP farm? You said you had one GPP farm and a second city devoted just to the reduction of 'pollution' of GAs, but how mixed was your GP population in the GPP farm?

[cal_01]

I have some ideas.

To the best of my knowledge, Angkor Wat also affects Great Prophets. A modified CS slingshot going for Stonehedge/Oracle and then towards GL (for free scientists) and Spiral may be a good idea. SoL may be a good idea for the mid to late game, too, but it costs way too many hammers in the Prince/Monarch games that I've played.

Speaking of which, I think there's a good reason why Hanging Gardens isn't pursued much: by the time you hit the tech and/or get Hanging Gardens, your cities should be at max happiness already. Though hereditary rule plus a military unit fixes that fairly easily, it really slows me down having to compensate for that extra unhappy.

[Generaldoktor]

Re: Re: Re: GPP City Specialization Strategies

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat [/SIZE

Generaldoktor: Glad to see you tried it and glad to see it worked! But my question is how 'jumbled' was your GPP farm? You said you had one GPP farm and a second city devoted just to the reduction of 'pollution' of GAs, but how mixed was your GP population in the GPP farm?

I'm still playing the Warlord level test game, but I have got two Great Artists so far, as opposed to also two GS and two GE, so the percentage is a little skewed despite what you do. Foolishly finished Hanging Gardens with a GE in another city because I didn't read carefully and thought it might pollute, plus I wanted to spread the culture around. Oh well, better next time and I might get some GE's out of the other city. One reason maybe I'm getting some pollution is I built a d-mn theater in the GPP city to ensure happiness as it was getting kind of large with all the farms. It doesn't say in the manual this encourages GA's, other than Globe Theater, which I'd like to build there too, to ensure happiness forever as it grows enormous. But maybe the theater is the polluter and I know Globe there will mean more GA's. Maybe I don't need it since I have the Gardens.

Obviously Warlord helps and the Highlands map does too. The mountain ranges have kept Tokugawa, who's nasty as usual, from getting at me and others from even finding me, except Cyrus, who's fairly far away and converted to my religion. I just captured a beautiful barb city in a sheltered river valley with spices and rivers running up and down it and the smart Barbs put the city in exactly halfway down that valley. This was going to be the third GPP farm I mentioned, but I now think after reading some "cottage-builders" threads that I will mix that strategy in to the extent of building this as a giant commerce city with towns raking in gold off the rivers instead, to blast me even more totally into total domination.

Found another barb city with horses, which is something I lacked and the axemen are on the way to ensure I have knights soon, even though I had to do the first third of the game with no horse archers. The terrain is not conducive to fast movement anyway.

Having Gandhi sure helps also to blast out wonders, even when others like Toku get the tech a few turns first. This is becoming less a problem as my research establishment grows. My next GP off the farm is probably a scientist, but I'm torn whether to grab Machinery with him, a fairly expensive tech, or build a second academy. Choices, choices.

One thing I can't find is marble or stone, but I read off a CivFanatics thread (yes, it sometimes pays to steal over there ) that one of them did an analysis and Industrious leaders don't benefit as much from marble or stone anyway. Well, the scouts are out again looking anyhow.

Which brings up another thing, this extending for resources is giving me exponential growth that I don't want (the mountain ranges gave me a nice "castle," as long as I stuck to six cities,) and which is not recommended for Civ4. Revenues available for research are plummeting as both military and city maintenance grows. I'm building courthouses as fast as I can and trying to get the new commerce city up, but fear an extended drought of poor research because I grew too much, too fast. Hope the GP's can get me out of this one.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

I think it is probably inefficient to set up a great engineer factory since many of the point producers come so late in the game. However, it is relatively easy to produce a decent amount of these guys in the early game and save them for later. The easiest way to do this is to build pyramids and beeline to metal casting or take it from oracle, then run pacifism. I popped 4 engineers in a row doing this (although I basically ignored other specialist types in the beginning and consequently got less GP very early, but the 4 engineers were worth it I think).

I usually aim to pop alot of prophets and maybe one scientist in the early game. The prophets are probably the easist GP to focus on providing you get multiple religions. The prophets are generally more useful, since they don't really require specific wonders and are much easier to churn out at the beginning of the game.

[joncnunn]

On Small Wonders, I prefer:

1. Placing the National Epic in whatever city has the most world wonders [usually the capital]

2. Pairing Heroic Epic with the Penatagon. [Double speed very well trained troops]

3. I place Wall Street in the primary religious shrine city.

[JackRudd]

On the subject of popping great engineers, the "Alternate Pyramind Grab" (yes, search for "Pyramind") thread elsewhere in this section is worth checking out.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: GPP City Specialization Strategies

Originally posted by Generaldoktor


I'm still playing the Warlord level test game, but I have got two Great Artists so far, as opposed to also two GS and two GE, so the percentage is a little skewed despite what you do. Foolishly finished Hanging Gardens with a GE in another city because I didn't read carefully and thought it might pollute, plus I wanted to spread the culture around. Oh well, better next time and I might get some GE's out of the other city. One reason maybe I'm getting some pollution is I built a d-mn theater in the GPP city to ensure happiness as it was getting kind of large with all the farms. It doesn't say in the manual this encourages GA's, other than Globe Theater, which I'd like to build there too, to ensure happiness forever as it grows enormous. But maybe the theater is the polluter and I know Globe there will mean more GA's. Maybe I don't need it since I have the Gardens.

The Hanging Gardens really are a pain in the butt, because if you are trying to do any sort of GE spam like discussed here, you are bypassing the religious and cultural techs, so there's no happiness for your folks.

Because I'm beelining towards metal casting, then mathematics & engineering, with a short detour to literature.. by the time I go back to get the religious techs required by lit, they have already all been discoved.

So the Hanging Gardens give extra unhappy people! I've never used pop rushing as much as I have in this last game.

The theatre itself shouldn't pollute your GPPs. But, as I also found out in this last game, if you dont make sure to turn off the Gov, you might have them start running specialists for you. It did this in my last game to scientists in my GE Farm. I suddenly had a scientist specialist in there polluting my GPP. Luckily I caught it in time.

One thing I can't find is marble or stone, but I read off a CivFanatics thread (yes, it sometimes pays to steal over there ) that one of them did an analysis and Industrious leaders don't benefit as much from marble or stone anyway. Well, the scouts are out again looking anyhow.

I like philo over ind. Because actually all I am doing is using wonders to create GPP. Therefore, it's better to get the bonus that will always apply to GPP rather than a bonus that applies only when you are doing one specific thing.

As far as Ind not benefiting 'as much' from stone or marble, mathematically they don't. But it's the same skewed argument that says running Pacifism as Philo isn't as beneficial. It's theoretically correct, but not really all that important.

As an IND leader you already build wonders in half the time. Marble/Stone will still halve the time it takes you to build them.. but you're only actually saving 1/4 of turns rather than 1/2 the turns because you already started out needing less.

Bottom line, if two IND leaders are building the pyramids and one has stone and the other does, the one with stone will still benefit.

Revenues available for research are plummeting as both military and city maintenance grows. I'm building courthouses as fast as I can and trying to get the new commerce city up, but fear an extended drought of poor research because I grew too much, too fast. Hope the GP's can get me out of this one.

The other 'problem' with this strategy. The first is happiness, with no religion or cultural techs (although you did get drama, but I don't), and the second is definately funding. It takes awhile to get your economy on track when you don't really establish a commerce city until your third or fourth. However, by using GE and GS you should still be able to maintain a relatively strong tech presence (especially with the GL) until your commerce cities are up and running and before the GL goes extinct.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky
I think it is probably inefficient to set up a great engineer factory since many of the point producers come so late in the game. However, it is relatively easy to produce a decent amount of these guys in the early game and save them for later. The easiest way to do this is to build pyramids and beeline to metal casting or take it from oracle, then run pacifism. I popped 4 engineers in a row doing this (although I basically ignored other specialist types in the beginning and consequently got less GP very early, but the 4 engineers were worth it I think).

I've been able to generate four GEs before my GL starts kicking in and churning out GSs. I used two to build the hanging gardens and the Hagia Sophia and the other two to discover techs. One was machinery 18 turns early and I forget the other tech off the top of my head

I usually aim to pop alot of prophets and maybe one scientist in the early game. The prophets are probably the easist GP to focus on providing you get multiple religions. The prophets are generally more useful, since they don't really require specific wonders and are much easier to churn out at the beginning of the game.

Confused here.. the number of religions you have doesn't have anything to do with the number of GPs you produce. And the only influence GPs have on how many religions you have is if you use those GPs to discover religous techs.

I also don't know what you mean by 'GPs don't require specific wonders'. Sure they do, as much as any other Great People do. It's just that you are probably building those GP specific wonders anyway so you don't really notice yourself 'going out of the way' to get them.. Stonehedge and The Oracle both produce GPs. It's obvious that the Spiral Minaret does (and most only build that if they are focused on religions anyway), but also maybe not so obvious is the Chichen Itza that also produces Prophet Points. (Which, IMO, is the only reason to actually build the CI)

[Willem]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
Confused here.. the number of religions you have doesn't have anything to do with the number of GPs you produce.

Yes it does. You can only have 1 Priest with a Temple, but if you have multiple Temples you can run multiple Priests. Therefore more points towards a Great Prophet.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Well.. I suppose that technically, you are correct.

But do you really believe your response is in line with his statement?

He wasn't even talking about specialists.

He was saying that the more religions you have the more GPs you will get.

Its even more clear when he says that GPs don't rely upon Wonders like other Great People... which is absolutely false.

I think it's a very clear case of somebody who is doing what nearly everybody does early on... and that's go after stonehedge (and the oracle) and then end up with alot of GPs.

I used to love GPs. Why? Because they are the easiest to get. And they seem to reap huge rewards... up until the time you start popping out a GS or GE 'by accident' and then realize the difference.

GPs are like training wheels. They show you the importance of GPP and you want as many as you can get, but when you pop out three GPs and then one GE or GS you just LOVE them alot more than those GPs, don't you?

GPs are abundant in this game.. and they are that way for a reason, IMO.

And that reason (which is what I'm trying to work out in this thread), is because the others are less frequent, take far more work in order to get, but give far greater rewards.

So far.. Unless you are actually going a full-on religous route, GS and GE are far better. And a LOT more difficult to get.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat

But do you really believe your response is in line with his statement?

That's the way I was interpreting it. There's also the fact that Shrines give GP points, so the more you have the more GPs you'll get.

GPs are abundant in this game.. and they are that way for a reason, IMO.

I agree with you there. My main reason for getting GPs is to build Shrines and to use as half of the requirement for a Golden Age. They're also good for a few techs, but not nearly as much as a GS. They outlive their usefulness fairly early in the game.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

Confused here.. the number of religions you have doesn't have anything to do with the number of GPs you produce. And the only influence GPs have on how many religions you have is if you use those GPs to discover religous techs.

Sure it does. If I have three religions in a city, then I build three temples and pop three priest specialists in my city. This gives me three priest sources and makes it extremely easy to produce that type of GP. For this reason I think they are less dependent on wonders as opposed to GE which almost require the pyramids. Of course Ankhor Wat is awesome for pumping out GP and some of the early wonders definitely help, but for the most part I rely on lots of temples to produce my GP.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

Maybe I should clarify the above statements. I was talking about Great Prophets only.

[couerdelion]

GPs

I believe the standard acronym would be

GP = Great Person

To avoid confusion with Prophets, we can simply call them "Prophets". Since Engineers, Artists, Merchants and Scientist come in standard form it makes sense to give them the title "Great" when they appear as a GP. Prophets are simply "Great Priests" so don't need the title

[Generaldoktor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GPP City Specialization Strategies

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat


The Hanging Gardens really are a pain in the butt, because if you are trying to do any sort of GE spam like discussed here, you are bypassing the religious and cultural techs, so there's no happiness for your folks.

Because I'm beelining towards metal casting, then mathematics & engineering, with a short detour to literature.. by the time I go back to get the religious techs required by lit, they have already all been discoved.

So the Hanging Gardens give extra unhappy people! I've never used pop rushing as much as I have in this last game...

I like philo over ind. Because actually all I am doing is using wonders to create GPP. Therefore, it's better to get the bonus that will always apply to GPP rather than a bonus that applies only when you are doing one specific thing...

The other 'problem' with this strategy. The first is happiness, with no religion or cultural techs (although you did get drama, but I don't), and the second is definately funding. It takes awhile to get your economy on track when you don't really establish a commerce city until your third or fourth. However, by using GE and GS you should still be able to maintain a relatively strong tech presence (especially with the GL) until your commerce cities are up and running and before the GL goes extinct.

Funding is certainly a problem, but I guess the whole thing I'm getting the charge out of is playing this on Warlord. I got the Pyramids, and GL and even Notre Dame, this last over in my GA city; and the extra pop from the Gardens and no happiness problems. I'm running Representation, but no Pacifism because on the Highlands map I've got a big problem with barbs and some of my neighbors, specifically Toku and Peter, are very pushy. At the moment, Kublai likes me. But I like a big military even while I'm doing this "builder/culture/GP/merchant" hybrid thing so I don't get pushed around, or have to have fire brigades running constantly after barb fires, so this is why I like Industrious also, the forges help.

I suppose this wouldn't work on higher levels; the happiness thing for one and running research at 10-20% for awhile, while I bankrupted myself conquering barb cities or building extra ones to get horses, elephants, wine and silk. I also did deviate to get Drama and Currency, (but I got some good trades; and Calendar off a goodie hut , that last would never happen on Prince or above.) My cottages, courthouses and grocer/markets are starting to kick in now; I actually have two big commerce cities and three more that look promising, two of them ports. (I played with seas and high sea level, since I'm a naval man )

I thus messed around getting CS, though I still had it before anyone else, I guess from playing at this level. Engineering and Construction came late and I raced for Liberalism (and won the free tech, Printing Press, for my budget woes) rather than doubling back for Divine Right or Replacement Parts and I suppose that's going to hurt later; if I pop another GA he can buy some towards Divine Right (though I'm not sure why it's set up that way. ) Remember, I'm Spiritual, as well as Industrious; I got my religion in early (Hindu) and I can jump around the Civics with no anarchy down time (and I had Pyramids from early on.) Some of this may not just be Warlord, it may be just smart , or lucky.

Bottom line, I'm learning the basics of how to pop GP's, that are mostly my choice; which I could never figure out before. I'm also having a heck of a good time . I really respect these guys who want "the challenge" all the time of playing on Monarch or above , but sometimes it just feels good to kick some major AI butt. Now if I can only figure out how to do it on Noble... Probably a little less razzmatazz on the culture side and less chasing after luxuries.

Well, RLM, you started this thread and seemed for awhile to like GPP specialization. In the last post you seem to dis it. I'm confused.

My experience, admittedly on the low level, has been that one can force out most of what you want by doing as you suggested at the beginning with clustering the wonders, although it seems there will always be some pollution as far as types of GP's created. Another screwup of mine was putting the Gardens in another city, but I like the culture up there; that's also why I have a second GA city, to push out the borders. Looks good overall to me, depending on start and conditions, once it is mastered on the higher levels.