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  • GPP City Specialization Strategies

    I know that some out there have some GPP City Specialization Strats... I didn't really even worry about them until I was reading the Cultural Victory thread where it was pointed out that having a single city producing great artists was a great way to just culture bomb your way to an early victory.

    Of course, in order to do this, you want to remove the chance of that city producing anything other than great artists, which leads to GPP City Specialization.

    I started playing with this idea in my last game, but I was focused on Great Engineers. They seem to be... well, underused in most strategies that I read. Some do count on producing one to build the Great Library. But after that.. they seem to be ugly little stepchildren in the GP world and I was wondering why.

    Anyway.. in order to get a GE factory going, there are three wonders that produce GE points.. Pyramids (always useful), Hanging Gardens (sometimes annoying with its +1 pop), and the Hagia Sophia (+50% worker production ain't bad).

    You can also add a forge that allows you to add one Engineer specialist, Factory that allows two specialists and Ironworks that allows three. I think that's it.

    So you can have up to 6 engineering specialists in a single city, plus the GPP from the three wonders.

    With that flow of engineers, you can then rush wonders in your other cities and make them specialized as well.

    Right now I've managed both a GE city (which also acts as my production city, obviously) and a GS city that has the Great Library, and a GA city that has National Epic and the Parthenon in it (GPP boosting wonders create Artists and you don't want them mixing with your scientists or engineers)

    Has anybody else tried to focus individual cities on specializing GPP? And why the lack of love for Great Engineers? I imagine that they are actually the most powerful of all the GP because there are only three wonders that will help produce them, and your ability to assign them as specialists is vastly more restricted than with any other specialist.

    Any thoughts?

  • #2
    Regarding national epic, you will end up with more great engineers overall if you have a GE factory with the national epic in it. In your case, 6 engineer specialists + iron works + pyramids + hanging gardens + hagia sophia = 10 sources of engineers, and the national epic is only 1 source of an artist. That's a ~91% chance of engineer, and the epic means the engineer could be produced up to twice as fast. If you have the parthenon, are philo, run pacifism, etc, the epic's effect is reduced (to something like 28% with all of the above, I think), but 128% of 91 is ~116... so even though one in eleven will be a great artist, you still end up with more engineers total.

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    • #3
      Well crap, you're correct.

      I thought National Epic boosted GPP in every city, not just that single one.

      After your post I looked it up, and sure enough.. ACK! You're right. It'd be better to pollute the GE pool a bit probably.

      Thanks!

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      • #4
        Is the percentage of a particular great person based upon the number of sources or the type of points? I always thought that it was based on the type of points and if this is true then it is better than 91%:
        Hagia=2 GE
        Gardens=2 GE
        Pyramids=2 GE
        Iron Works=1GE
        6 Specialists=18 GE

        25 Engineer points

        Throw in the National Epic's 1 GA point and that looks more like ~96%.

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        • #5
          Actually, I stand corrected. Apparently it is the number of sources: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=148799 (post#16)

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          • #6
            I would generally not pollute a specialized GP pool with the Heroic Epic. While the odds would favor it giving more overall GP of the chosen type, odds are finicky. A bird in the hand...

            For GE, for a good portion of the game the Heroic Epic is going to mean 20% Artists at the lowest anyways. Factories and Iron Works come much later.

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            • #7
              Aeson.. you are exactly correct. Heroic Epic won't work in the GE city. I tried it last night and it screwed up my whole plan.

              I had the Hagia Sophia, the Pyramids, the Hanging Gardens, a forge and one specialist... then comes the National Epic, and sure enough.. the next two great people the city produces are both GAs, not GEs.

              Not going for a cultural victory, I had no real need for the GAs. The factory and Ironworks come much, much later than National Epic so their influence on the GE generation can't really be factored in to counter the impact of the Artists.

              Arrgh!

              I also missed the Great Library, partly because I was screwing around, and partly because I used my GE on the Hanging Gardens... so my GS city also ended up lagging way behind in the game as well.

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              • #8
                May be better of put the Ironworks in a hammer city.
                Best regards,

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                • #9
                  True... I could try that, but with my GE city running a bunch of Engineer specialists, I normally have a large enough production in that city (even though the majority of the tiles worked are farms), that Ironworks still provides a good benefit there.

                  I was reading some threads on Civfanatics about GPP and GP city specialization and it was proven that having all your GPP generated in a single city is more advantagous than spreading your GPP out to two or three cities.

                  However, there's a downside that doesn't seem to really be explored which is why I started this thread.. and that is, what good is it to get more GP if by doing so you run the risk of getting GP that you don't want or aren't planned as part of your startegy?

                  Sure, the Parthenon and National Epic are great at producing more GPP. But if you put everything in the same city and were focusing on getting Scientists or Engineers (or even Prophets or Merchants), slapping the Parthenon and the NE in there will get you more GP sooner. But you'll very likely end up with GP other than the ones you wanted.

                  The question boils down to: 'Is it better to get fewer GP, but the ones you WANT, or is it better to just get more?'

                  If I'm going to lose 2 GP over the course of a game by specializing my cities to GE, GS, and then a 'toss away' GA city (most likely will never make enough points to catch the other two and provide a GP), does it matter if those 2 GP are going to be Prophets, Artists or Merchants that I don't want?

                  Sure, I suppose you can always use them for something.. but now we have to factor in.. maybe I'll gain 2 more GP by shoving everything in a single GPP farm, but I might end up with 2 Artists, 2 Prophets and a merchant. So now I'm not 'gaining' to GP, I'm actually losing FIVE.

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                  • #10
                    I think that for most games where you are generating a healthy number of GPs, the claim that one-city generation is optimal is really only true in a theoretical sense. In practice the rate of GP generation will be limited by food so it will still be quicker to generate them in several cities where each of these are running with several specialists. What the theory does encourage is the “concentration” of GP points: 25/10/10 will produce GPs quicker than 15/15/15.

                    With regard to dilution, I tend not to worry about this too much and try to adapt to the situation that it gives me a Great Person that I did not want. In my current game, the Great Library was placed in my capital along with the Pyramids because the capital was the best place for it as it would be getting the first academy. If I happen to get a GE then I’m sure I’ll find a use for it.

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                    • #11
                      I am not an expert,or fan,GP manager.So,at begining,the ones I need:Prophet to shrine,Scientist to the academy;after...they are all good.
                      Best regards,

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by fed1943
                        I am not an expert,or fan,GP manager.So,at begining,the ones I need:Prophet to shrine,Scientist to the academy;after...they are all good.
                        Best regards,
                        They are all good, what's all this dis of GA's? You go on other threads and they have all these ambitious plans for pinning the enemy with "culture bombs" or winning cultural victory by pointing up the cities. Haven't you ever wanted to "change the borders" to wrest away a resource from a bordering competitor (or a whole city, but city flipping is rather rare in Civ4, though still possible, I've done it.)

                        Great Artists!

                        Now, how do I get them or any others to grow well in cities. Is it farms alone? Somebody said on another thread your cottages should be on the water and your farms not, to maximize commerce. But don't you get bigger farms bordering fresh water? Like fed above, I haven't really been producing a whole lot of them using my normal city growth model, which is based more on the performance potential of individual tiles and their placement, rather than "city specialization." But in my case, I'd like to change more to the specialized model.
                        You will soon feel the wrath of my myriad swordsmen!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well, you'd certainly want your commerce city to be building cottages rather than farms. But you'd also want your GPP city to be building farms, not cottages.

                          City specialization, ya know?

                          As far as GAs go, I wasn't dissing them. They're just not what I'm focused on trying to use right now. I've already done the GA route, getting Caste System before I even had drama so I could start pumping out GA as quickly as possible for cultural victories.

                          They have their uses, but aren't nearly as important as GE or GS if you aren't focused on cultural victories.

                          You want some GAs? Switch to Caste System as soon as possible, farm everything you possibly can and make as many people as possible art specialists. Then build the Parthenon and the National Epic in that same city.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
                            Well, you'd certainly want your commerce city to be building cottages rather than farms. But you'd also want your GPP city to be building farms, not cottages.

                            City specialization, ya know?

                            As far as GAs go, I wasn't dissing them. They're just not what I'm focused on trying to use right now. I've already done the GA route, getting Caste System before I even had drama so I could start pumping out GA as quickly as possible for cultural victories.

                            They have their uses, but aren't nearly as important as GE or GS if you aren't focused on cultural victories.

                            You want some GAs? Switch to Caste System as soon as possible, farm everything you possibly can and make as many people as possible art specialists. Then build the Parthenon and the National Epic in that same city.
                            I must have brains or something, at least belatedly. Before I even read your post, last night I sat down as Gandhi on a huge Highlands map, Marathon, played Warlord till I figure this stuff out (barbs are bad on Highlands maps too) and it all worked; the GPP farm, a second farm just for GA's, another hammer city and everything. I'm double the power points of anyone else. Of course, it is just Warlord.
                            You will soon feel the wrath of my myriad swordsmen!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: GPP City Specialization Strategies

                              Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat
                              Has anybody else tried to focus individual cities on specializing GPP? And why the lack of love for Great Engineers? I imagine that they are actually the most powerful of all the GP because there are only three wonders that will help produce them, and your ability to assign them as specialists is vastly more restricted than with any other specialist.
                              Yes, I do exactly the same thing as you are. As well as running all of one type of Specialist, I'll also build the appropriate Wonder in that city.

                              As for lack of love for Engineers, I'd love to have more of them going but it's not easy. They're the hardest specialist to get any kind of high numbers on so I tend to concentrate on the others. It's easy enough to say that you should get those Wonders you mention, but actually beating the other AIs to them is a different story. So that only leaves you the Forge for a single Engineer until the Industrial Era.

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