Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

[Dactyl]

I've tried the beeline to Civil Service in two Monarch games, and failed to get to the Oracle first in both games. I was playing as Qin, Epic speed.

In the first game I had an unfortunate starting position. My capital had rice but no other good food-producing tile, since I had no rivers or lakes nearby. That hurt right off, since I couldn't do any pop rushing. I researched the Wheel, Pottery and Writing, then Mysticism, etc., to Code of Laws. I built a library in my capital and set two pop to research, but it still took an awfully long time to research Code of Laws. The AI beat me to the Oracle by one turn.

In that first game, I had only two cities and it seemed to take forever to build the library. I thought that I might research bronze working first and hopefully produce a second settler on the way by chopping a lot. That worked just fine. I ended up with three cities, but I got beat to the Oracle again. I was 10-11 turns away from Code of Laws when the AI built it. It was again taking a hell of a long time to research Code of Laws, something over 30 turns total since I didn't have the gold to run 100% research, but even if I had been able to run 100% research, it would have taken somewhere around 25 turns.

My conclusion after this admittedly limited test is that this beeline to Civil Service strategy only works with great reliability when you're using a civilization that starts with Mysticism.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Arrian
I forgot to actually SWITCH to Confucism for a while... quite a while, actually, b/c I found myself running Organized Religion and, after a few turns, realized I had no religion and thus was paying for the civic w/o getting a boost to production!

This is a bummer for non-SPI. When I do this under SPI I can say "ho hum" and build a few missionaries instead. Having said that I often avoid converting to my religion if I feel it'll cause problems with the neighbours. Again with SPI you can convert, switch to a religious civic for the task at hand, and then hopefully drop it before anyone has time to get really upset. I love that trait as it's so tolerant of my dodgy civic switches.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'm still screwing up, of course. I forgot to actually SWITCH to Confucism for a while... quite a while, actually, b/c I found myself running Organized Religion and, after a few turns, realized I had no religion and thus was paying for the civic w/o getting a boost to production! Idjit! I was focused on the civics changes (Bureacracy, Slavery - I chose not to go to Caste right away) and forgot to convert!

-Arrian, still learning

I do that all the time

And even if commerce seems to be your ideal answer to the situation, a monastery might be a less choice: if your next build is a settler, why not start on one early?

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dactyl
My conclusion after this admittedly limited test is that this beeline to Civil Service strategy only works with great reliability when you're using a civilization that starts with Mysticism.

Not necessarily. Almost every civ starts with a tech that can get him to writing faster. The reason why most people fail is because they build their lib too late. You need that research early: ideally, you want to create an academy before you're half way to CoL (better yet when you're researching for Priesthood)

On Monarch, an asap academy before a beeline to CoL will always let you be the first to reach it, barring very poor play. The real problem is getting enough production to get the Oracle in time: But once your academy finishes, you can most of the times take the 2 scientists off, and use them for e.g. hills or forests. Or pop-n-chop, of course.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Agreed, DeepO, I should've just put some work into a settler.

Cort,

SPI is great that way, yeah. In this particular game, I founded all the religions that were founded on my continent. I converted the English and Persians easily. Actually, that's how I noticed I had forgotten to convert! I went "hey, where is my +4 for brothers and sisters of the faith... oh, ****, I'm a moron!"

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Dactyl
My conclusion after this admittedly limited test is that this beeline to Civil Service strategy only works with great reliability when you're using a civilization that starts with Mysticism.

Mysticism can help, but it's not key. Any starting tech that suits your starting position helps. So Fishing is cool when you start with sea resources on the coast, and Agri is cool if you have grains etc. Mining is great when there's plenty of forest. Mysticism will always be useful, but then so are the leader traits if you can leverage them.

I would say that the CS beeline only works with great reliability when I've planned how to implement it in my situation, and don't make mistakes on the way, so in this respect it's not an easy maneuvre, and it does take some practice.

[Arrian]

The one oddity about that game was, despite the 2 scientists, my first TWO great people were prophets! The first one was fine, he founded the Confucian shrine. The second I used up for Theology, figuring I'd like to use Theocracy for the extra XP at some point. My third GP was the scientist I'd wanted for the academy. I think that, particularly w/regard to the second prophet, I got a pretty low-odds result. My Academy came a little late, but not too bad, since I also built the Parthenon, which sped up that Great Scientist a bit...

All in all, it was fine. My research was solid even without the Academy. The shrine gave me enough money to offset some expansion and units. Theology allowed me to use Theocracy to get 2 promos on my units that I used to take a big bite out of England. Having lots of religions allowed me to build several monasteries in Kyoto (I have 3... the Taoist missionary failed and I haven't gotten around to building a Taoist monastery & another missionary to try again).

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Arrian, don't underestimate the effect of an early academy: it might easily bring in 10 bpt. You need 10 cities, all with religions in them to get that much commerce from shrines.

Which is why a crucial part of most CS beelines is to get to that lib asap. If you can pass the religions, fine. If you can pass BW, fine. But get that lib running now!

Any CS beeline where you complete the academy after the Oracle is a lucky one. Some situations you simply can't do otherwise, though, and you need to be lucky. You weren't, it seems.

DeepO

[Arrian]

I typically finish the Oracle before getting the scientist for the Academy. Probably because I want to not cripple my expansion too badly (2 settlers pre-Oracle).

I did build the library fairly early, I thought. I ran the 2 scientists... I did! Oh well. The Great Library was the key to finally getting the GS. Now my capital's GP production is a crapshoot (Oracle, Parthenon, Great Library, Great Lighthouse, Colossus, Taj Mahal, Notre Dame, Hagia Sophia... ).

-Arrian

[Dactyl]

DeepO,

I'm afraid that my experience had been very different from yours. I've tried a couple of more tests without success. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm playing at Epic speed. There it takes 150 Great Leader points to get that scientist you need to build the Academy, and without that you're lost. In addition, the strategy seems extremely dependent on starting location. If you finish the library and you have a size 4 city, those two specialists are going to hurt.

Unless someone can show me a couple of example games on Epic speed where it works, I'll have to conclude that it's a Normal speed strategy.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dactyl
DeepO,

I'm afraid that my experience had been very different from yours. I've tried a couple of more tests without success. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm playing at Epic speed. There it takes 150 Great Leader points to get that scientist you need to build the Academy, and without that you're lost. In addition, the strategy seems extremely dependent on starting location. If you finish the library and you have a size 4 city, those two specialists are going to hurt.

Unless someone can show me a couple of example games on Epic speed where it works, I'll have to conclude that it's a Normal speed strategy.

Epic is the same. Are you succesful at normal speed? Otherwise, failing epic is not a test to decide it's a normal speed only strategy.

In Epic, everything is *1.5 ... the hammers needed for Oracle, the GPPs for your GS, the the beakers needed for CoL. So, you also need 1.5 times the turns... as do the AI.

All the same things. Of course, Epic is a totally different game when it comes to how you use your military, but also there there are ways of securing your land without building massive quantities of units.

Besides, size 4 is fine to run 2 scientists. I've done it at size 3 as well. Extreme focus ni one area, will let you start focusing on the next asap. You don't need 2 settlers before the Oracle either: another ~16 turns won. I do try to get one settler before the Oracle, but in some situations its better to go without one. You can catch up faster if you start settling building after the Oracle (not to mention you'll found confucianism in your capital, which is also a big advantage if you plan on using that religion)

DeepO

[Dactyl]

I still don't see it, DeepO. I have studied the posts about that strategy and have applied it as suggested. For example, I read Aeson's DAR1 and DAR2 posts on the AU game and he got the Oracle at 1440 BC on Normal speed. I don't know what date that is on Epic, but it sure as hell seems quick, yet he doesn't appear to be doing anything I'm not.

I really don't understand it. The fact is that since you can't pop and you can't chop because you don't have BW, you're really helpless to speed things up. Like I said, I'd have to see an action report that spelled out how one goes about pulling this off reliably, and with a civ that doesn't start with Mysticism. I say "reliably" because this is pretty much an all-or-nothing approach. If you fail to get the Oracle, you're playing big time catch up.

[xxFlukexx]

I dunno, I just did it on Epic/Prince/Washington, built it by 1000 B.C. with 3 cities up.

Mysticism-Meditation-Mining-Bronzeworking-Priesthood-Writing-Code of Laws-Civil Service(free)

That's kind of a lazy CS slingshot, I go for Buddhism, take a detour for BW, then back to CoL. I actually didn't even use Bronzeworking, on Prince I had lots of happies so I could grow to my hearts content without popping or chopping. Not even my academy up, was at 116/150 GPP

If you fail to get the Oracle, yeah well you aren't that screwed, you still go for an academy and use that and grab BW and then all the terrain improvement techs quickly and you still should have Confy and maybe Budy. Won't take long to catchup on Noble/Prince.

*edit* Ahh I couldn't find what difficulty you had it on. On Monarch/normal speed I don't usually have a problem with doing the CS Slingshot, but epic speed, ehhhhh. I'm not convinced that the epic and quick speeds are entirely balanced. Sure it costs +50% and you get +50% more turns, but I am still not convinced that it's the same thing. I might try epic/monarch later on tonite or maybe someone else will try it, but ugh epic starts are so boring to test out, takes so many turns to pump out just a worker, hehe *edit*

[Dactyl]

Since it was such a close thing on Monarch, it doesn't surprise me that it works on Prince. On Monarch you usually won't have time to squeeze Bronze Working in there.

[xxFlukexx]

I am having extreme difficulty getting CS via the Oracle on Emperor difficulty. Sometimes I am ~13 turns away from CoL and sometimes the Oracle is ~13 turns away but if I want to grow to 2-3 cities, I don't think I have a shot at CS Slingshot. I have managed to do it staying at one city, barely got it done at around 1000 B.C. But by then I had 2 civilizations building cities on my borders which pretty much killed my expansion and I am in a real bad position. the AI usually gets the Oracle at ~700-1000B.C., but I have seen it grab it at 1260ish B.C. so I don't think CS slingshot is viable at Emperor. Maybe in a rare situation or two you can pull it off.

On Emperor I use the Oracle as a defensive manuever. I rountinely see the AI grab Philosophy with the Oracle and letting the already super-powered AI get a free 1300+ beaker tech is too much to bear. The swing is nearly 2000 beakers when you figure you deprive the AI of ~1300 beakers and give yourself ~600 beakers free from a free tech.

The choice for me on Emperor is usually Monarchy(Hereditary Rule) Alphabet(if you get it fast you can get in on some early trading) or Code of Laws(religion + courthouses) Alphabet is great, but if you are missing the Pyramids(which I give up on if I am not Ind or have stone very close by) then Hereditary Rule is very important, unless you get extremely lucky on rares.

I feel like I am naked on Emperor, not many opening plays I can do, and by the time I can support over 3 cities, most of the land is taken up. If I expand too fast, I can never recover from the tech hit, once you are out of the "tech trading society" it's almost impossible to get back in.