Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

[Velociryx]

I can pop and chop too, but can do so earlier if I get to the tech faster.

Yes...you could. The question is...will you? (and in truth, this is only really applicable in MP....in SP, it is definitely not a necessity, as the AI's tendencies are pre-programmed and predictive). And if you do, then what won't that worker be working on while he's chopping?

That's the beauty of Civ, and the reason that you don't have to be first, or even to focus so heavily on commerce in the early stages. If you can devise a strategy *around* the advantages of being first to a particular tech, and if you are willing to do whatever it takes (including pop/chop if it is warranted), then yes, it can yield turn advantage. Otherwise, it will lead to a temporary advantage that can't truly be expressed in turns (but can still be important).

I'm definitely willing to be wrong here, but as I continue to play more games and try different approaches, I think that the early commerce focus is probably not the most optimal approach. Early commerce focus can net you a key tech early, but unless you're willing to shift focus to capitalize on the gain, then it can easily work against itself (ie - lots of tech, and not enough production to fully capitalize on it).

To make a commerce focus pay good dividends, infrastructure is required (libs, markets, etc). "Raw" gold (commerce or gold from tiles) will certainly speed you on your way TO those techs, but there's a lot of groundwork between game start and being ready to build the infrastructure in any case.

Having played a spate of commerce-centric games, I found that the pacing was radically different from my preferred production focus, and I always felt as though I was teetering on the brink of the abyss. Techs coming in faster than I could make good use of them, and I was always trying to play "catch-up" with infrastructure builds.

The early game is, by design I believe, production focused. BronzeWorking provides two invaluable production tools, but these (or at least one of them) is nearly totally at odds with a commerce focus, which only has two (relatively minor) bits of multiplicative infrastructure to offer a commerce focus (markets/libs). Contrast that to the toolbox that a production focus has (where food = production under slavery)....commerce focus has markets and libs, production focus has grainaries, the slavery civic (pop-rush), chop, lighthouse (more food), etc. And further, a production-heavy focus can easily usher in a slightly later commerce focus (by providing the tools to build the aforementioned infrastructure). Thus, when it's time to make the transition, a production focus can do so with great ease.

In this instance, it actually reminds me of SMAC. When I first started playing SMAC, I was all over the notion of an early energy focus for the quick gains in ancient era techs. In time, however, I discovered that even GREATER gains could be made by focusing on minerals first, and "grow into" a more energy-centered approach.

My mind is not fully made up with Civ, but I strongly suspect that I'll reach the same conclusions here.

Don't know tho....which prolly means that I need to try and get off work early to go play some more....

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Velociryx
That's the beauty of Civ, and the reason that you don't have to be first, or even to focus so heavily on commerce in the early stages. If you can devise a strategy *around* the advantages of being first to a particular tech, and if you are willing to do whatever it takes (including pop/chop if it is warranted), then yes, it can yield turn advantage. Otherwise, it will lead to a temporary advantage that can't truly be expressed in turns (but can still be important).

I'm definitely willing to be wrong here, but as I continue to play more games and try different approaches, I think that the early commerce focus is probably not the most optimal approach. Early commerce focus can net you a key tech early, but unless you're willing to shift focus to capitalize on the gain, then it can easily work against itself (ie - lots of tech, and not enough production to fully capitalize on it).

This is exactly what I'm talking about in the post above this one (or at least, I try ): you can race ahead in one area, but at some point, you must look back, fill in the gaps so to speak, and try to use your huge advantage in one area to get up to speed fast in others.

In my preferred way of playing, I get way ahead in tech, preferrably using the CS slingshot, but others might be possible too (e.g. a navigation beeline on archipelago). Then, I use that advantage to catch up... better units earlier, will give me more cities. Some improvements will allow me to grow faster / higher. etc.

You can do it the other way around too: by focusing on production early on, you can catch up in tech later. And yes, there is one wildcard here: alphabet. Use that tech well, and you can offset any tech disadvantage you might have (it won't get you in front, but at least you're equal). Alphabet is the key to any production heavy start, and yes, it was designed to make it easier for production lovers to start the game.

If you could really proof that production is always better than tech, you should post that. I'm sure more people would be interested... right now, my feeling is that is balanced on most levels, and depending on situation you can pick one of the two.

Of course, deity games don't follow the same logic. But I wouldn't know how balanced these are, AFAIK there still is only one player who regularly beats deity.

Having played a spate of commerce-centric games, I found that the pacing was radically different from my preferred production focus, and I always felt as though I was teetering on the brink of the abyss. Techs coming in faster than I could make good use of them, and I was always trying to play "catch-up" with infrastructure builds.

Yes, that's right. It can feel like this. You asked before about which situations require specialisation: well this is it. By not building everything, everywhere, you are not running so thin, and you can still wait for techs as the don't come in fast enough.

Thus, when it's time to make the transition, a production focus can do so with great ease.

I'm not disputing that in the slightest, I know it is true. One of the paths... and certainly not the only path.

DeepO

[Velociryx]

I can pop and chop too, but can do so earlier if I get to the tech faster.

Actually, in thinking about it, especially in terms of Oracle, and the CS Slingshot, this is incorrect. Doing your standard CS Slingshot beeline from memory, it goes something like: Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, CoL, Oracle Build timed to complete with achieving CoL.

Nowhere in the beeline is BronzeWorking, which would add two techs, and push some aspect back. So pop/chop would be completely unavailable under the approach above.

In SP, this seldom matters, since the AI doesn't seem to make Oracle a priority, but in comparing the two approaches, you concluded that the commerce focus would give you a 1 tech advantage. This is undone completely by chopping the Oracle to completion and grabbing any of a number of viable techs (none of which approach the expense of CS, to be sure, but Metal Casting, Horseback Riding, or Alphabet for free would all be nice choices as well, depending on the prevailing in-game situation). This then, is a case-in-point where a production focus early on can trump a commerce focus (given that the only advantage claimed is a ~1 tech lead)....I can undo the singular advantage you claimed--pulling back even, AND have more infrastructure in the same timeframe, which sets me up to widen the gap down the line.

In MP, I would be highly doubtful that CS Slingshot can even be pulled off, precisely for this reason....any MP'er who knows about it/fears that someone may be working towards it can make straight for Bronze, pick up the religious techs on the cheap, and chop the Oracle to completion for any number of "lesser" freebies, nabbing an extra tech and denying the capitol gains to be had via early Bureaucracy.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Actually, in thinking about it, especially in terms of Oracle, and the CS Slingshot, this is incorrect. Doing your standard CS Slingshot beeline from memory, it goes something like: Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, CoL, Oracle Build timed to complete with achieving CoL.

When I've done it, it's not been that direct. I always make sure I have Animal Husbandry, and often throw in mining... or the wheel. I'll do writing (via Animal) before meditation/priesthood, to get going on the library earlier.

Once or twice I've put in BW (I think in games where I've started w/mining).

-Arrian

[DeepO]

In most CS slingshot games, you've got time to get to BW, and use chops to speed up the Oracle. It's often the best way: with your capital running scientists to get a superearly academy, it has no production but plenty of science. You can go for BW, and only after that go for priesthood in case your lib hasn't finished yet, or afterwards when you're surging ahead to CoL.

CS slingshot is SP only, though. I wouldn't even try it at MP, however you never know if it succeeds.

But, I meant the tech advantage in a general sense: If I squeeze 1 more bpt out of my empire, I will reach BW 3 turns faster if going straight for it (and without mining). If you can get a worker out in that same time span, you can chop 3 turns faster as well. And you very well know what turn advantage in production can bring you.

I'm not going commerce heavy all the time, I have ups and downs in my tech pace. If I've got a hostile start, I typically will focus on research as long as needed to see a resource I can settle, after which I shift gears for production, or growth (growth and production go relatively well together, it's commerce that's the odd one out)

DeepO

[Xarathas]

Couple of notes I'd like to post.. a bit scattered, but I just got done finishing reading the last 3 pages of this thread

Regarding City Specialization -

I definately agree that specialization have its merits. I almost always have at least 1 super science city (for oxford), and 2 production cities (one for ironworks, one for heroic epics, coupling one or the other with Ironworks or West Point). There's really nothing that can make up for what these cities can put out.

However, I'm also the type to put certain buildings in every city. One example - I read that some people only like to put barracks in a few cities. I tend to put them in every city and are often average~high in my priority list (higher if I have Agg). I generally don't have all cities making military units, but there are 3 reasons they're there.

1) When you want to gear up for war. It takes less time to do so. Especially when you are playing on Normal, and units have a bad habit of going obsolete during a war. Not to mention that as soon as the computer gets a new tech, they get basically free uprades! (ever rush a city with 3 archers guarding it only to have it turn into 3 longbows when you get there?) Every turn you can save when gearing up for war counts.

2) Opposite of 1), when you are attacked, and you are undermanned. You will probably end up whipping/producing units in every city and not just your military cities.

3) War weariness. This doesn't really apply until mid-game. .. but having barracks in your city can help you with war weariness. Nationhood for +2 happiness in every city with a barracks is a GODSEND at times. There's no other civic in that column that gives happiness.


Regarding starting strategy -

I think Civ4 is really more about adaptability as opposed to a set strategy. Beginning to the end.

For instance, CS Slingshot is a nice, stable strategy that is useable in most situation (if you play with raging barbarians on, it makes it indefinately tougher), but I don't think it's necessarily the best.

When I deem it doable, a Pyramid strategy seems to workout for me much better than what the CS slingshot would. It's actually pretty often that I end up with the Pyramids early on. All I need is to have either Industrial, or stone nearby, and a few forests to chop. I rarely miss it when I go for it. The only one attempt that I recall that I actually missed in a single player game, was when Genghis Khan attacked me out of the blue at around 1000BC with chariots.

Pyramids is a very powerful wonder early on, especially on the higher levels. Representation is infinately better than Despotism and Hereditary rule, your only choices early on.

Sciencewise - the scientist specialists that you run (which is pretty darn necessary at high lvls of the game) are basically on double output of what your scientists give until you actually reserarch constitution yourself. That's a pretty darn huge advantage. Better, yet you don't even have to actually run a scientist specialist. You can run an engineer in your production cities and still get the 3 beakers you'd normally get form a scientist. It also helps out any great people you add to your city. Get a great prophet that you didn't mean to get, add it to the city and voila, 2 hammer 5 gold and 3 beakers. That's quite a big boost for early game.

Happiness - 3 more happy people for 5~6 cities is about all you need early on. Granted, Hereditary rule can give you more happiness.. but not without additional upkeep, both civic wise (hereditary rule is medium) and unit wise.

Hmm.. I'm sure this is common knowledge to a lot of people, but thought I'd just throw this out there for some that don't see the usefulness of Pyramids.

[DeepO]

BTW, a great trick is to line up chops: have workers chop, but wake them the last moment, so that only one turn remains. Now, pre-chop the next forest in the same way. The moment you start working on something that needs to be rushed (Oracle), do the last chop on a tile, move to the next, chop again. Especially with Indian workers this is amazingly effective: you can have the Oracle in 3 turns or less in about any game with some forests around.

DeepO

[Velociryx]

In most CS slingshot games, you've got time to get to BW, and use chops to speed up the Oracle. It's often the best way: with your capital running scientists to get a superearly academy, it has no production but plenty of science. You can go for BW, and only after that go for priesthood in case your lib hasn't finished yet, or afterwards when you're surging ahead to CoL.

I agree. In most cases, there IS time, but this *decidedly* takes away from the early commerce focus, as Bronze is not a commerce-centric tech (having read your DAR on AU 1, I understand that the reason for all the early commerce micromanagement is a) to get the most beakers possible, and b) not to waste any of them--this to be accomplished by choosing the path to the Oracle that uses the fewest possible beakers. Given the above, Bronzeworking will not appear in any truly commerce focused beeline.

Further, I've never had any situations where the Oracle needed help building faster, IF I'm trying to time its completion to coincide with CoL. On the contrary, usually I'm trying to slow Oracle's completion DOWN to make sure I don't accidentally finish it too quickly.
My conclusion then, is that if you stick to your commerce focused approach, you will, in all probability, not make Bronze a priority, which means that you'll likely be several hundred beakers ahead in a comparative situation, while the production focused game will be somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple THOUSAND hammers ahead by the time the last ancient era tech has been researched.

While I agree that commerce is important, I don't think it's *that* important, and I think that its importance grows as your level of infrastructure increases (which requires a production focus if you want to get it up and running quickly).

Total agreement, however, that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and if you're comfy in the commerce zone, I'll not try and sell you on some other system. The commerce focus works for you, and at the end of the day, that's what's important. Having tried it early, I've discovered that I feel very much "behind" for much of the game (even WITH specialized cities). IMO, an early game production focus is more in line with the natural ebb and flow of the game, so that's where I tend to gravitate. I don't fight it....I go with the flow. And it works. Very effective.

CS slingshot is SP only, though. I wouldn't even try it at MP, however you never know if it succeeds.

I wouldn't try it either!

But, I meant the tech advantage in a general sense: If I squeeze 1 more bpt out of my empire, I will reach BW 3 turns faster if going straight for it (and without mining). If you can get a worker out in that same time span, you can chop 3 turns faster as well. And you very well know what turn advantage in production can bring you.

Agreed, but see above. 100's of extra beakers vs. 1000's of extra hammers? I'll take the hammers any day!

I'm not going commerce heavy all the time, I have ups and downs in my tech pace. If I've got a hostile start, I typically will focus on research as long as needed to see a resource I can settle, after which I shift gears for production, or growth (growth and production go relatively well together, it's commerce that's the odd one out)

I agree with this as well....I'm production focused, but I still build hyper early cottages in the pursuit of setting up MRC's, so I cannot truly claim to be a production-only player....again, I suspect our styles are more similar than dissimilar, with the differences being at the margins.

-=Vel=-

[Krill]

[q=DeepO]CS slingshot is SP only, though. I wouldn't even try it at MP, however you never know if it succeeds.[/q]

[q=Vel]I wouldn't try it either! [/q]

Why ever not, pray?

The Save

[Krill]

CS slingshot works well if you have allies nearby that can protect you. The variant of getting metal casting works well, especially if you are industrial...

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Velociryx
having read your DAR on AU 1, I understand that the reason for all the early commerce micromanagement is a) to get the most beakers possible, and b) not to waste any of them--this to be accomplished by choosing the path to the Oracle that uses the fewest possible beakers. Given the above, Bronzeworking will not appear in any truly commerce focused beeline.

Actually, my AU 1 game was far from perfect. I think that a BEW would have worked well. It would have meant not to got to Budhism, though. We already started with mining, and the start was very foodish. Ideal for pop-n-chop. I failed to realize that, or I didn't put enough focus on it.

The result was that I ended up delaying my CS beeline quiet a bit. I could only use 1 scientist, and had only moderate production. I should have chopped my way together.

So, by including BW in my beeline, I could have been faster in getting CS. I estimate it would gain me at least 5-8 turns by taking the 'detour'. Some others have done that, BTW, maybe not so extreme but still...

I'm not going commerce heavy all the time, I have ups and downs in my tech pace. If I've got a hostile start, I typically will focus on research as long as needed to see a resource I can settle, after which I shift gears for production, or growth (growth and production go relatively well together, it's commerce that's the odd one out)

I agree with this as well....I'm production focused, but I still build hyper early cottages in the pursuit of setting up MRC's, so I cannot truly claim to be a production-only player....again, I suspect our styles are more similar than dissimilar, with the differences being at the margins.

Yeah, we are very similar. I suspect that whenever possible/needed, we will shift more to the other's viewpoint, without realizing it.

One difference, I suspect, is that you rely more on cottages then I do. It's not so uncommon to build very few cottages for me, and conquer my commerce improvements together. Especially with a CS slingshot, you can do this: with 1 or 2 cottages in your empire, you don't need any more research centers for a long time to come. All your other cities can focus on barracks, your whole empire is geared to production at this point (specialized!).

The moment you've got enough units, invade, still not having built more then one lib in your empire. The AI cities will have plenty of cottages, so these start right away on commerce... thus once your initial attack wave is done, you've got both a productive core, and research centers a plenty... time for a wave of commercial consolidation focus again.

The whole game plays in waves to me. They're not always equal, but it's rare to be in constant war, or in constant builder mode. So instead of fighting that (by e.g. running Org Rel the whole time), I try to ride the waves and focus on that even more.

So, one path:
- Commerce first --> CS
- Production next. Capital takes all the commerce/science, 1 extra holy city the possible exception for gold
- Build up army --> invade
- improve new land, build up infrastructure everywhere. New land becomes research engine, capital might shift to something else
- once your empire is running smooth again, prepare for the next war. You normally should have a few techs since last time, so you can build all advanced units from scratch. Put slider to commerce for upgrade money, and off you go.
- etc.

You can also reverse it, and go production heavy. I do play other styles too, and it certainly works. But for the moment, I prefer the easy first, war later approach.

DeepO

[khearn]

When I'm going for the Civil Service (CS) slingshot, I also like to fit in bronzeworking (BW) along the way. Doing the CS slingshot, you can find that you reach CS and have great tech, but right about then the barbarians (or your neighbor) start rolling in and all you've got is a few inadequate warriors to defend. By researching BW, you have the ability to chop out a few axemen (are they made of wood?) very quickly to bolster your defenses at a critical time.

I've been playing at noble and prince levels, and haven't had trouble making the CS slingshot work with BW fit in along the way. I suspect at some higher level there might not be time for it, but I'll leave that question to those who have ventured to those rarified heights.

[Ithkul2]

I've had so much success with warmonguring style of play.

Leader: Genghis Khan
Diff: Monarch
Land: Pagna (one land mass. dont remeber name)
Size: Standard
Speed: Epic

1. I rushed worker, animal handleing tech. Found my first target (Cleopatra) and had hourses at capitol.
2. Made barraks, archery. Didnt make a single settler whole game so far.
3. Pumped out archers untill i got horseback riding.
4. Killed some barbarians and tok their city with my first few Keshik.
5. Attacked the closes city of Cleopatra after choping out a few more keshik.
6. Made peace(10 turns) after taking 4 cities.
7. Made granary and workers.
8. Rebuild a grand army including a few swordsman, axemen, spearman, but mostly keshiks and archers.
9. Around 8 cities now, writing => cleopatra bully for tech, trading tech with others.
10. Invading my next closest target. He is friendly, but his cities is to inviting.
11. Having problems on researching due to high upkeep on cities and army, but when I have taken 3 more cities i will go commerce and build up my cities.

year is 640 AD, I am behind in tech, but I got like 10 cities and they are blossoming. Upkeep will be my great challenge now, but I trust cottages and growth will save me.

My earlier peaceful games on monarch have "failed". I have survived, but i never win. But this game... wow! War has so much untapped potential in civ4. The NPC leaders are so easily conqured.

I posted in this tread, because I know war is the key to beating the highest levels. What you think Vel?



edit: please excuse my spelling errors. thanks

[Velociryx]

I think you've certainly picked a good civ for warmongering! The Mongols come equipped with a splendid ancient era uu, well suited for the style of play you're using them with.

Probably the only thing that would improve your situation that I did not see mentioned would be a beeline for Code of Laws....if it were me, after getting to the point where I was making Keshiks, but before I actually took my first enemy city, I'd make straight for Code of Laws, and then make my next tech target Construction (catapults, which will further extend the lifespan of my Keshiks). In this way, you'll be able to chop courthouses where you need them most (far-flung conquered cities), and then pop-n-chop cultural infrastructure quickly to re-expand the city borders.

Overall tho, I think you're right on target!

-=Vel=-

[Blake]

Fat mongol vs skinny Mongol?
Both get aggressive. So it's expansive vs creative. I think there is no question that creative is the more powerful warmongering trait, but expansive will certainly make it easier to whip in infrastructure and make captured cities productive. The main economic benefit of creative is that you can hook up resources a lot easier, the main problem is that it makes it too easy to focus purely on military, since you never have to build anything for border expansions.

I suspect that with Genghis you'd want to focus on the cities, poprushing and stuff. With Kublai, the best bang-for-buck would come from working nice resources made available to work by creative, so a bit more of a worker focus and a bit less whipping, the earlier resource hookups will help health/happy in most cases.

I'm thinking that Kublai is the better warmonger, but prehaps I don't properly appreciate expansive.