Apolyton Civ4 PREVIEW (By Solver) - Part 2 online

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Solver
Ralph - yep, but there's a good reason why one of the two missing combinations is exactly that, and not any other.

Creative + Industrious
Industrious + Philosophical

are missing. Both Industrious.

According to CFC (assuming that is correct, which is far from being a given):

Creative: "+2 culture per city. Double production speed of theater, coliseum."
Industrious: "Wonder production increased 50 percent. Double production speed of Forge."
Philosophical: "Great People birth rate increased 100 percent. Double production speed of University."

On the first view I don't see any reason, why they wouldn't go together, none of the bonuses "bite". I don't think balance issues are the reason, I hope that the traits are so well balanced, that any combination would go together.

Starting techs (again relying on CFC) seem not to depend on traits, but only on civs, so no clash here either.

Guess I pass. No cookie for me.

EDIT: Ah I see, my balance assumption was too well meant. My fault.

[Aks K]

Originally posted by Solver
Yeah, that's it - the combination would be very overpowered. You get wonders easier than anyone else, and generate GPs faster. WIth cheap wonders giving you those GP points, you could get GPs too well even without running pacifism.

Why didn't they change the industrious trait to give a 25% bonus and the philosophical to give a 50% bonus? I think it is a shame that this combination is overpowered.

Aks K

[Freddz]

Originally posted by Solver
Yeah, that's it - the combination would be very overpowered. You get wonders easier than anyone else, and generate GPs faster. WIth cheap wonders giving you those GP points, you could get GPs too well even without running pacifism.

When a combination is overpowered it usually means the elements of the combo needs some tweaking... albeit possibly minor tweaking.

[Solver]

Maybe, but all the other combinations are in excellent balance now. Plus, Ind/Phi would be overpowered under the right circumstances certainly, and not always. For example, if you get the wonder that increases GP birth rates further, or if you get stone/marble, that would be too crazy.

[Harovan]

I concur with the posts above, a trait combination being imbalanced disappoints a bit.

[Krill]

So, the fact that only one combo out of 28 is not balanced, compared to the fact that 27 of the trait combos are, means that every single trait needs to be reexamined?

Meh, I'll stick with having one unbalanced trait combo thanks, rather than have it all messed up...

[Harovan]

It is certainly a problem for modding and adding/replacing civs. Or does, if you choose that combination by purpose or accident, a window pop up and warn "Dear modder, this combination is imbalanced and not meant to be used"?

[Aks K]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
It is certainly a problem for modding and adding/replacing civs. Or does, if you choose that combination by purpose or accident, a window pop up and warn "Dear modder, this combination is imbalanced and not meant to be used"?

I agree. I also see modding problems.

Aks K

[m15a]

wow. i have a username here . .

i thought we just agreed that the *combination* is a problem, not any particular trait? it's not like anyone's complaining about the fact that there are no civs that are philosophical+philosophical (giving a great people birth rate increase of 200%). that would obviously be unbalancing, but it doesn't mean that philosophical is an overpowered trait by itself.

my background in thinking about game balance relates more to (paper and pencil) role playing games. but for that, i know that you have to consider the worst case scenario. industrial+philosophical might be fair for most types of players, but if certain types (people obsessed with great leaders) can overpower everyone else with that combo, it shouldn't be allowed in the game at all.

and regarding modder issues . . well, modders should know what they're doing if they want to keep a fair game.

[Freddz]

Originally posted by m15a
wow. i have a username here . .

i thought we just agreed that the *combination* is a problem, not any particular trait?

Wrong. We never agree on anything in these forums.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
It is certainly a problem for modding and adding/replacing civs. Or does, if you choose that combination by purpose or accident, a window pop up and warn "Dear modder, this combination is imbalanced and not meant to be used"?

That would be silly. The whole purpose of modding is to do it differently than the core game!

On the other hand, a lot of things depend on the purpose of a mod. If it is a personal thing, to explore options not otherwise available, sure. If you are trying to create a mod that will be widely distributed, though, then you may want to try to make it at least as well balanced as the core game. Unbalanced games play the same way over and over, once you've figured them out, because in too many situations, there is only one right choice.


- Sirian

[Aks K]

Originally posted by Solver
Maybe, but all the other combinations are in excellent balance now. Plus, Ind/Phi would be overpowered under the right circumstances certainly, and not always. For example, if you get the wonder that increases GP birth rates further, or if you get stone/marble, that would be too crazy.

But bouns resources like stone/marble will also add to the industrious trait. And wonders which increases GP birth rates with a certain % will add to the philosophical trats bonus, right? This should reduce the effective effect of these traits.

The only problem will be wonders which add +1 or the like to GP birth rates because they will be doubled by the philosophical trait. If this is changed then the philsosphical trait will be better balanced.

Else I dont see any problems here.


If a civ gets a wonder monopoly then they might be sitting ducks for warmongers. Everyone in the game would like to get hold of this civs cities.

Aks K

[sophist]

Originally posted by m15a

i thought we just agreed that the *combination* is a problem, not any particular trait?

I think the feeling is that if a particular combination of ingredients is much too powerful, then those ingredients themselves are at least slightly too powerful. I also share the disappointment that such a flaw is built into the game. That no leader has those traits out of the box isn't a fix. To me, it's a smell that there is a defect in the game design. It's not an enormous one, more like the princess and the pea, but it's still there, and I wish it wasn't.

[Freddz]

I can say this as a comment: I think many of us would like to play the industrious/philosophical traits in combo - if they were well balanced. It sounds like a fun combo. That's unlikely to happen now even in an expansion as it is now, as it unbalances MP.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Freddz
Wrong. We never agree on anything in these forums.

I cannot agree - we DO agree in these forums